About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

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Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

The author describes Jesus as from the "tribe of Judah" without clarifying that he doesn't mean the earthly-tribe as such a phrase would be most naturally heard.
So for you a Dyonisus coming from the tribe of Thrace would be a historical person:

The theatrical guild in Roman Smyrna assigned the epithet Briseus to Dionysus: the reference was probably to the Brisei of Thrace

https://journals.openedition.org/kernos/2490
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

The author likens Jesus to us Earth-bound humans "in every respect", "sharing in flesh and blood".
paradoxically, he doesn't mention where he was crucified or some minimal historical details that would have served to do the same point (that Jesus was a man) but with more persuasion and evidence. Instead, nothing. Only banal insistence on the humanity of Jesus to comfort persecuted Christians about the fact that Jesus suffered just as them.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

Re Gal 3:13, it is improbable that god (the creator) would have cursed the crucified Jesus, unless he was just the enemy of Jesus. Hence the interpolator wanted to remark the distance between Jesus and the Judaism, but I don't know if he did so against Marcion and all the Christians (something as: "their Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah because he was cursed by the creator") or pro Marcion (something as: "Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah because he was cursed by the creator, therefore Jesus was the messiah of an alien god").

If Paul wrote the OT quote, then he would be conceding that the cross is embarrassing for God himself, when the cross is the same "power of God" for 1 Cor 1:22-24. I am sorry but I see here a contradiction.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

Epiphanius in Panarion 42:8:1 quotes Marcion as basing on the first part of Gal 3:13 :

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us

...but he omits the OT quote as part of the Marcion's argument. Hence I wonder why in the various modern reconstructions of the marcionite Galatians the entire passage 3:13 is considered as found in Marcion's version and not only the first part of the verse.

Can someone explain the reason? Thanks in advance.

It is clear that only by adding the OT quote in Gal 3:13 the passage seems to do the point that there is no rivarly between Jesus and the Creator. Pace Marcion.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by toejam »

Giuseppe said:
So for you a Dyonisus coming from the tribe of Thrace would be a historical person
You’re attempting the old mythicist switch here – changing the goal posts from ‘Did the author think Jesus had been crucified on Earth or in heaven?’ with ‘Was there a historical person?’. Try to focus on one point at a time. Remember, your original post claimed that “For Paul the crucifixion is a cosmic event (i.e. happened in heaven)”. This can be disputed independent of whether or not there was a historical Jesus. I pointed out to you that Paul never says the crucifixion event happened in the cosmic realm (i.e. in heaven). You responded then with a highly questionable interpretation of a text that Paul didn’t even write. So still nothing from Paul about Jesus having been crucified in heaven. The Jesus of the Epistle to the Hebrews is thought to have come “from the tribe of Judah”. If the author wasn’t thinking of the regular Earth-bound “tribe of Judah”, he should have said so.
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Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

It seems that you have omitted the reading of the my post of reply.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5284#p99999

We can ignore the tribe of Judah question. It is the cult of Jesus coming from there. Just as:

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

(John 4:22) it is not a good motive to historicize the "salvation". Just as the label of Braseus for Dionysus is not a good motive to believe that he - and not the his cult - comes from Thrace.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

To be clear, I consider Hebrews 13:12 the smoking gun against the historicity. Put bluntly, you can't avoid the fatidic question:

what is "outside" in opposition to "here"?

Remember that "outside" is where Jesus suffered. And this place is the exact opposite of "here" where we - I and you - are.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by toejam »

Do you think Paul wrote Hebrews?
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Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

No.

Ephesians is a pseudo-pauline epistle but even so, read Ephesians 3:
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus
...
18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God

"this love that surpasses knowledge" is the same mistery of which Paul talks in 1 Cor 2:6-11, since also there Paul quotes a scripture where the gnosis is given by the love of God for "whom he loves".

But then why does this mistery is described as having "the breadth and length and height and depth" ?

So Irenaeus, Epideixis 1:34 :

And because He is Himself the Word of God Almighty, who in His invisible form pervades us universally in the whole world, and encompasses both its length and
breadth and height and depth
for by God's Word everything is disposed and administered the Son of God was also crucified in these, imprinted in the form of a cross on the universe; 171 for He had necessarily, in becoming visible, to bring to light the universality of His cross, in order to show openly through His visible form that activity of His: 172 that it is He who makes bright the height, that is, what is in heaven, and holds the deep, which is in the bowels of the earth, and stretches forth and extends the length from East to West, navigating also the Northern parts and the breadth of the South, and calling in all the dispersed from all sides to the knowledge of the Father.


So the crucifixion was originally for Paul a cosmic crucifixion. Not an earthly crucifixion.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by toejam »

Giuseppe said: "We can ignore the tribe of Judah question. It is the cult of Jesus coming from there"
I'm not going to let you off that easily. The passage seems clear enough. The author is talking about a Jesus he thought had actually descended from the Earthly tribe of Judah:

"Now if perfection had been attainable through the levitical priesthood—for the people received the law under this priesthood—what further need would there have been to speak of another priest arising according to the order of Melchizedek, rather than one according to the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. Now the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests"

The "tribes" here are clearly the (believed historical) 'Earthly' tribes of Israel. And of these tribes, the author thinks Jesus came from the tribe of Judah. This alongside all those other verses you concede finds the author saying Jesus was a man, "sharing in flesh and blood", "like them in every respect", being able to call them "brothers", etc., it's simply easier to think the author had an Earthly-Jesus in mind.
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