About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

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Giuseppe
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About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

(Apart the Eucharist episode of 1 Cor 9, obviously)


Gal 3:13 :
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole."

the part in red is a judaizing historicist interpolation. For Paul the crucifixion is a cosmic event (i.e. happened in heaven). It becomes "a curse for us" only if we believe the wrong anti-Christian hearsay about Jesus as a seditionist crucified by Romans or by Jews. The interpolator introduced the biblical quote (in red) to give theological credit just to that anti-Christian hearsay and by doing so the crucifixion ceases virtually to be a cosmic event. It becomes now only a mere human event, even if still involving the Son of God. Hence Paul ceases to be the privileged witness of a cosmic event. By degrading the crucifixion, also Paul is degraded. The author of the interpolation is therefore a Judaizer.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by toejam »

Paul never says the crucifixion happened in the cosmic realm, and there's no evidence for interpolation here.
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Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

toejam wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:41 pm Paul never says the crucifixion happened in the cosmic realm, and there's no evidence for interpolation here.
There is evidence that for Paul the crucifixion is never cause of embarrassment:
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

(1 Corinthians 1:22-24)

Hence the author of the part in red in Gal 3:13 can't be the historical Paul. Who finds embarrassing the crucifixion is ipso facto not Christian, for Paul. Only a cosmic celestial crucifixion is not embarrassing.

The evidence that the crucifixion happened in heaven for the early Christians is found in Hebrews 13:12:

And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to sanctify the people. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore, for here we do not have an enduring city"

Jesus suffered outside the place where we are here. "Here" is the earth. Hence "outside" is the heaven.

If you deny this, then you are intellectually dishonest.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by toejam »

I don't see any conflict between 1 Cor 1:22-24 and Gal 3:13. And Paul probably didn't write Hebrews. But even if he did I see your interpretation of it as a misinterpretation. But apparently that makes me "intellectually dishonest" :facepalm:. How old are you? 15?
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Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

toejam wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:23 am I see your interpretation of it as a misinterpretation.
There is no alternative explanation. What would be "here" in the quote above from Hebrews, as in opposition to "outside" in the same context?

Your silence would give reason to me.

P.S. I am 28 years old.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

toejam wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:23 am I don't see any conflict between 1 Cor 1:22-24 and Gal 3:13.
the quote of scripture in Gal 3:13 may be a Marcionite interpolation insofar the demiurge cursed Jesus by crucifying him, as per the his scriptures. But in 1 Cor 1:22-24 Paul is rather explicit in the negation of any embarrassing feature of the crucifixion. How can the embarrassment be justified theologically by the same author of 1 Cor 1:22-24?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »



After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

(1 Tess 4:17)

And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to sanctify the people. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore, for here we do not have an enduring city

(Hb 13:12)

"In the Air" == "outside the camp". Where Jesus suffered and where the Christians will meet Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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toejam
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

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Ah, so disagreement with Giuseppe = "intellectual dishonesty", and silence = some sort of concession of the point. I know this game :facepalm: :facepalm:.

Paul regularly quotes 'scripture' out of context. The quotation you think is interpolation is simply Paul clarifying what scriptural curse he believes Jesus to have come under, after having said that Jesus became a curse for the faithful. There's no tension with 1 Cor 1:22-24. It simply makes sense if Paul is thinking of a Jesus crucified here on Earth (as this Jesus is thought to have attained a curse originally prescribed for Earth-bound pre-Israelites under the Mosaic Law). There is no manuscript attestation in favor of interpolation, and (as far as I'm aware), there are no Church Fathers who speak of it ever having been found omitted. According to BeDuhn's reconstruction, the phrase is present in the Marcionite Apostolikon. Surely the tendency of Marcion was to distance Jesus from the OT, not interpolate more OT scriptural allusion! Your argument for interpolation is extremely weak, if not completely non-existent outside of your searching for a reason to get around yet another otherwise obvious 'Earthly-Jesus' reference in the undisputed Pauline corpus of the sort that Carrier-schoolers regularly assert don't exist.

Re: Hebrews 13:

Simply read a verse earlier:

the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood

On the literal level, the author appears to be showing his awareness of the gospel Passion Narrative, where Jesus is crucified just outside the walls of Jerusalem. On the allegorical level, the author appears to be referring to his "outside" of the heavenly tent - i.e. down here on Earth among us wretched lot!

When the author writes...

Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore, for here we do not have an enduring city

... It's just another poetic way of saying "take up your cross".

Hebrews is littered with 'Earthly-Jesus'. The author seems aware of the Gethsemene scene (probably from the gospels, I would guess), describing Jesus' "days of his flesh" when he "offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears". The author describes Jesus as from the "tribe of Judah" without clarifying that he doesn't mean the earthly-tribe as such a phrase would be most naturally heard. The author likens Jesus to us Earth-bound humans "in every respect", "sharing in flesh and blood". The author quotes the scriptural phrase "made a little lower than the angels" to refer to mortal Earth-bound humans before quickly applying it to Jesus also, thus suggesting equivalence. The author understands Jesus as having called Earth-bound humans his "brothers". Jesus' sacrifice is believed by the author to atone for Earth-bound human shortcomings. It "sanctifies the people". How? Apparently because Jesus was "like them in every respect". This Jesus "came" to "help the [spiritual] descendants of Abraham", etc. The author's atonement logic makes very little sense if he is thinking of a Jesus crucified somewhere else other than here on Earth, alongside mortals and as one of us.

You also haven't addressed the issue that the author of Hebrews is probably not the same as that of Galatians (nor 1 Thessalonians). So assuming a consistency of theology between them is risky.
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Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

toejam wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:50 am On the literal level, the author appears to be showing his awareness of the gospel Passion Narrative, where Jesus is crucified just outside the walls of Jerusalem. On the allegorical level, the author appears to be referring to his "outside" of the heavenly tent - i.e. down here on Earth among us wretched lot!

When the author writes...

Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore, for here we do not have an enduring city

... It's just another poetic way of saying "take up your cross".
The error is evident in the your interpretation. For you, "here" is not (or not only) the earth but only (or also) Jerusalem, the earthly city of Judea. It is simply impossible that all the original readers of the epistle were Jews from Jerusalem. The author doesn't exhorting them to abandon the earthly Jerusalem. But to ascend to heaven. Abandoning the entire earth.


There is clearly an opposition "outside the camp" versus "inside the camp". The mission of the Christians is, as you say, "take up your cross", but in order to ascend to heaven by abandoning this earth. Not only a mere city of it. I see the possibility of a double reading. But the "camp" is already a concrete term. No need of another concrete thing as an earthly location named Jerusalem.

So I see two levels: the "camp" and the earth of which the "camp" is allegory of. But you see three levels:
The "camp" and the earthly Jerusalem and the earth of which the first two are allegories of. It is evident that you are introducing more items then myself to interpret the passage. Occam prohibits.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: About the only historicist interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

The author seems aware of the Gethsemene scene (probably from the gospels, I would guess), describing Jesus' "days of his flesh" when he "offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears"
really? And why just the Gethsemene scene and not the Jesus's cry on the cross?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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