Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by davidmartin »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:41 am I have argued that the call of Levi once stood in between Mark 10.46a and 10.46b. YMMV.
maybe Levi and Labbeus (and Matthew) do refer to one called Judas, and this was awkward
Strictly speaking the gospel of Thomas should be called the gospel of Judas, and it could be so should the gospel of Matthew!
That might explain some editing in Mark in this area
Maybe they just didn't want Christians naming their children 'Judas', to keep that name as 'bad'
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JoeWallack
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Do You Want To Know A Secret

Post by JoeWallack »

Do You Want To Know A Secret

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them.
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand.
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God.
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)


Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

https://twitter.com/JosephWallack/statu ... 77445?s=20
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JoeWallack
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Why Must You Be Such An Angry Young Man

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Why Must You Be Such A Angry Young Man/Mark1:41 Jesus Angry?

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them.
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand.
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God.
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?


Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry
Secret Alias
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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by Secret Alias »

They always find some speck of dust and turn this into the equivalent of any argument for authenticity. There really is no point. I agree with you but remember these are religious minds. The religious scholar is the 'purest' of academics. He has no motivation for what he does. He makes no real money (when compared with what one could make in the 'real' world). He has no prestige really (the religion is dying). What he serves is a static notion of 'truth' - that what was passed down from Irenaeus or 'the Church' was inviolable. That's what all these guys are about. They're on 'team inviolable.'

Morton Smith found something. That means that there is no clear explanation for how the gospels were developed. Morton Smith found something. That means that means what we know isn't enough to comprehend the origins of Christianity. It's an unsettling discovery. That's the problem. It unsettles Christianity.

Is it Markan? Yes it's Markan. Could Morton Smith have noticed these things about the canonical gospel of Mark? Of course it's possible. You can't disprove it. So what are you left with. Waiting for people to die. Waiting for the current generation to drop off and have a new generation look at things with a fresh set of eyes. That's all.
schillingklaus
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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by schillingklaus »

The story of the nude guy in Secret Mark is an etiological myth for the practice of baptismal clothes.
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JoeWallack
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The Perils Of Pauline

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

There's No Need To Fear

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein3).
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them.
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand.
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God3).
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?

3) I think "little" refers to Paul (paulus). GMark is written as what supposedly happened. It is anachronistically presented as not supposed to be understood in its own time by the characters there (ironically, including Jesus). Subsequently you have to let Paul (and not let the Disciples of Paul's time prevent/rebuke you from coming to Paul) teach you the mystery of the Kingdom of God. What KK said. Galilee (teaching/healing) is supposedly the history but Judea/Jerusalem is The Way/Entry/Salvation/Baalgo!, belief in Jesus' supposed passion. "Mystery" is a dominant Pauline word and "teaching at night" is just code for sleep/dreams/visions/revelations.


Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry
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JoeWallack
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Hands Across The Water

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eD-H3a8D6E

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein3).
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them4).
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand4).
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God3).
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?

3) I think "little" refers to Paul (paulus). GMark is written as what supposedly happened. It is anachronistically presented as not supposed to be understood in its own time by the characters there (ironically, including Jesus). Subsequently you have to let Paul (and not let the Disciples of Paul's time prevent/rebuke you from coming to Paul) teach you the mystery of the Kingdom of God. What KK said. Galilee (teaching/healing) is supposedly the history but Judea/Jerusalem is The Way/Entry/Salvation/Baalgo!, belief in Jesus' supposed passion. "Mystery" is a dominant Pauline word and "teaching at night" is just code for sleep/dreams/visions/revelations.

4)


Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry
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JoeWallack
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Get Down, Get Funky, Rise back Up

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qchPLaiKocI

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein3).
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them4).
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him5), and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus5) and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand4).
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God3).
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?

3) I think "little" refers to Paul (paulus). GMark is written as what supposedly happened. It is anachronistically presented as not supposed to be understood in its own time by the characters there (ironically, including Jesus). Subsequently you have to let Paul (and not let the Disciples of Paul's time prevent/rebuke you from coming to Paul) teach you the mystery of the Kingdom of God. What KK said. Galilee (teaching/healing) is supposedly the history but Judea/Jerusalem is The Way/Entry/Salvation/Baalgo!, belief in Jesus' supposed passion. "Mystery" is a dominant Pauline word and "teaching at night" is just code for sleep/dreams/visions/revelations.

4)

5)


Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry
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JoeWallack
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All You Need Is Love

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5WDHYRCWh4

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein3).
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them4).
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him5), and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him6), and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus5) and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand4).
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him6) and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God3).
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?

3) I think "little" refers to Paul (paulus). GMark is written as what supposedly happened. It is anachronistically presented as not supposed to be understood in its own time by the characters there (ironically, including Jesus). Subsequently you have to let Paul (and not let the Disciples of Paul's time prevent/rebuke you from coming to Paul) teach you the mystery of the Kingdom of God. What KK said. Galilee (teaching/healing) is supposedly the history but Judea/Jerusalem is The Way/Entry/Salvation/Baalgo!, belief in Jesus' supposed passion. "Mystery" is a dominant Pauline word and "teaching at night" is just code for sleep/dreams/visions/revelations.

4)

5)

6) KK is on The Way but not there yet. The Markan contrast is what you love, but the specific contrast is loving the material verses loving the spiritual (in this Greek case, Jesus). Jesus loving you will get you Healed/Taught but you have to love Jesus to get into The Kingdom of god. Secret Mark is ironically making the Secret less secret. A few logical possibilities here:
  • 1. Default is to accept The Letter. Secret Mark was subsequently written by "Mark" to reduce the secret. As noted P45 appears to have been about
    1 chapter longer for GMark than canonical GMark with a lacunae at Chapter 10 where Secret Mark fits very well. P45 may have been Secret Mark.

    2. Someone who understood GMark may have subsequently written Secret Mark to make it less Secret.

    3. Secret Mark was just influenced by subsequent Christianity (orthodox) which flipped supposed evidence from negative (what not to do)/revelation to positive/supposed historical witness/evidence.

Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry
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JoeWallack
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:22 pm
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Two Youths Enter, One Youth Lives

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu8tX2BAD1k

GMark Secret Mark
10
13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1).
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein3).
16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them4).
17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him5), and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.
20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth6).
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him7), and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Secret Mark
And they come into Bethany.
And a certain woman whose brother had died was there.
And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus5) and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me."
But the disciples rebuked her1).
And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb.
And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb.
And straightway, going in where the youth6) was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand4).
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him7) and began to beseech him that he might be with him.
And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich.
And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God3).
And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]


Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?

3) I think "little" refers to Paul (paulus). GMark is written as what supposedly happened. It is anachronistically presented as not supposed to be understood in its own time by the characters there (ironically, including Jesus). Subsequently you have to let Paul (and not let the Disciples of Paul's time prevent/rebuke you from coming to Paul) teach you the mystery of the Kingdom of God. What KK said. Galilee (teaching/healing) is supposedly the history but Judea/Jerusalem is The Way/Entry/Salvation/Baalgo!, belief in Jesus' supposed passion. "Mystery" is a dominant Pauline word and "teaching at night" is just code for sleep/dreams/visions/revelations.

4)

5)

6)So we have two youths. One never finds The Way while the other does. What is the difference? Could it be something Jesus said like maybe in the next verse? Stay tombed.

7) KK is on The Way but not there yet. The Markan contrast is what you love, but the specific contrast is loving the material verses loving the spiritual (in this Greek case, Jesus). Jesus loving you will get you Healed/Taught but you have to love Jesus to get into The Kingdom of god. Secret Mark is ironically making the Secret less secret. A few logical possibilities here:
  • 1. Default is to accept The Letter. Secret Mark was subsequently written by "Mark" to reduce the secret. As noted P45 appears to have been about
    1 chapter longer for GMark than canonical GMark with a lacunae at Chapter 10 where Secret Mark fits very well. P45 may have been Secret Mark.

    2. Someone who understood GMark may have subsequently written Secret Mark to make it less Secret.

    3. Secret Mark was just influenced by subsequent Christianity (orthodox) which flipped supposed evidence from negative (what not to do)/revelation to positive/supposed historical witness/evidence.

Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry
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