Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

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Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by JoeWallack »

Do You Want To Know A Secret?

JW:
The Mark Saba Letter and The Difficult Reading Principle combined already make Secret Mark a candidate for originality. If Clement of Alexandria was aware of it late 2nd century, this would be long before any extant Manuscript of GMark containing the offending chapter 10 and would explain why.

The related Bible Scholarship has been dominated by looking at the Case for forgery. Prior to The Gospel Hoax Hoax Bible Scholarship generally assumed/argued that Secret Mark was forgery. Stephen Carlson's God-awful The Gospel Hoax attempted/claimed to definitively conclude forgery, but in an irony that the author of GMark/Secret GMark would really appreciate, ended up demonstrating the opposite. There is no direct evidence that Secret Mark is a forgery.

Hence this Thread. What is the argument for Secret Mark? As usual, because so little has been written on the subject, after a review of a few of my related posts at this forum, a brief search on the Internet and the analysis that follows, this Thread immediately becomes the best article ever written on the subject.

For Skeptical Textual Criticism, the only kind I ever use, Internal Evidence is exponentially more valuable than External evidence. Probably the most important criterion of Internal evidence is Theme. Theme has scope because it consists of quantity and quality. Quantity in repetition and quality in motivation. Our quest/question then for this Post, does the offending excerpt of Secret Mark have an important Markan theme? Where Is The Love?:

Verse Who Has The Love Successful Result? Connecting Phrase For Goal Commentary
10
21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Jesus No The Kingdom of God This is the last story in GMark before what's below.
Secret Gospel of Mark
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God.
The Youth Yes The Kingdom of God Goooooooal!

Note the key parallels and the contrasting differences in the stories. In the first, Jesus loves the 1% but the 1% loves being the 1% so even though Jesus does all he can do, there is still failure. In the following (so to speak) story it is the 1% that loves Jesus and there is success. The lesson of the two stories combined is that it is the love for Jesus, and not from Jesus, that is the key to success. As far as Markan theme, is this theme repeated in GMark and is it an important theme of GMark?

Bonus material for Solo = "Mark's" (author) teasing of a physical relationship here with that type of language but a sub-text meaning of a spiritual relationship, is that a Markan theme and just how difficult a reading would it have been for 2nd century Christians who at the time could not simply kill those who criticized/interpreted it as a physical relationship?


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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by Secret Alias »

But Solo has always believed this is a fake. Don't get it. But there it is.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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The Mystery of The King Dom

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
More Internal evidence for Secret Mark is how well its excerpts convert non-Markan style into Markan style. Behold Ecc.!:

Internally, extant Secret Mark is supported as original to GMark based on context:

The Youth with the Linen

14
51 And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over [his] naked [body]: and they lay hold on him;
52 but he left the linen cloth, and fled naked.
The story about the young man here seems strange/bizarre/macabre, even by Markan standards and deserving of some prior connected information. Secret Mark provides just that:
"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "son of David, have mercy on me". But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered , went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus thaught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."
Yet again, the other extant Secret Mark provides missing context to GMark:

What Happens in Jericho Stays in Secret Mark

10
46 And they come to Jericho: and as he went out from Jericho, with his disciples and a great multitude, the son of Timaeus, Bartimaeus, a blind beggar, was sitting by the way side.
So nothing to see here in Jericho, curious/odd/peculiar that "Mark" (author) would describe Jesus as going to Jericho but not give a reason why or describe anything happening there. But per Secret Mark:
And he comes into Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them."
As previously pointed out there is relatively little early extant for GMark. Sinaiticus may be the earliest complete extant orthodox GMark. It's possible that Secret Mark is the original GMark and this helps explain the early suppression of GMark. The orthodox may have known that Secret Mark was fiction and therefore avoided it. GMatthew may have been the original orthodox Gospel which still had to use Secret Mark as a base since there was no other Gospel narrative. After GMatthew, orthodox GMark was created, largely to replace Secret Mark, just as orthodox Luke may have been created to replace Marcion Luke (GJohn, same story). Thus orthodox tradition would be correct in a Kafkaesque type of way. GMatthew was the first orthodox Gospel, followed by GMark. This could help explain why there was no early commentary on GMark and why Sinaiticus was preserved. Despite its difficult readings it did have Secret Mark edited out.


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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by Secret Alias »

Secret Mark's addition is paralleled in the Diatessaron:
And when Jesus entered and passed through Jericho, there was a man named Zacchaeus, rich, and chief of the publicans. And he desired to see Jesus who he was; and he was not able for the pressure of the crowd, because Zacchaeus was little of stature. Arabic, And he hastened, and went before Jesus, and went up into an unripe fig tree to see Jesus: for he was to pass thus. And when Jesus came to that place, he saw him, and said unto him, Make haste, and come down, Zacchaeus: to-day I must be in thy house. And he hastened, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they all saw, they murmured, and said, He hath gone in and lodged with a man that is a sinner. So Zacchaeus stood, and said unto Jesus, My Lord, now half of my possessions I give to the poor, and what I have unjustly taken from every man I give him fourfold. Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, because this man also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man came to seek and save the thing that was lost. And when Jesus went out of Jericho, he and his disciples,
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by perseusomega9 »

DO you think the phrase 'son of Abraham' is original to SMark?
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
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Lazarus Tag (Lazie Pharisee)

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
Secret Mark 1st excerpt:

Gospel Verse
Secret Mark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Go ... #Fragments
And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, “Son of David, have mercy on me.” But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.
GMark 10 -
GMatthew 20 -
GLuke 16
19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day:
20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 and desiring to be fed with the [crumbs] that fell from the rich man`s table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham`s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.
27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father`s house;
28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.
GJohn 11
1 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 And it was that Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.
3 The sisters therefore sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When therefore he heard that he was sick, he abode at that time two days in the place where he was.
7 Then after this he saith to the disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
8 The disciples say unto him, Rabbi, the Jews were but now seeking to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If a man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because the light is not in him.
11 These things spake he: and after this he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus is fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 The disciples therefore said unto him, Lord, if he is fallen asleep, he will recover.
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death: but they thought that he spake of taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
16 Thomas therefore, who is called Didymus, said unto his fellow-disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
17 So when Jesus came, he found that he had been in the tomb four days already.
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off;
19 and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother.
20 Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary still sat in the house.
21 Martha therefore said unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 And even now I know that, whatsoever thou shalt ask of God, God will give thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, [even] he that cometh into the world.
28 And when she had said this, she went away, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Teacher is her, and calleth thee.
29 And she, when she heard it, arose quickly, and went unto him.
30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the village, but was still in the place where Martha met him.)
31 The Jews then who were with her in the house, and were consoling her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up quickly and went out, followed her, supposing that she was going unto the tomb to weep there.
32 Mary therefore, when she came where Jesus was, and saw him, fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews [also] weeping who came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
34 and said, Where have ye laid him? They say unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 The Jews therefore said, Behold how he loved him!
37 But some of them said, Could not this man, who opened the eyes of him that was blind, have caused that this man also should not die?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone lay against it.
39 Jesus saith, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time the body decayeth; for he hath been [dead] four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou believedst, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me.
43 And when he had thus spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 He that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes; and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Bits of parallels in bold. If Secret Mark was original are there plausible reasons for the related subsequent editing above?


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The External Evidence For Secret Mark = P45

Post by JoeWallack »

JW:
P45
Papyrus 45 ({\displaystyle {\mathfrak {P}}}{\mathfrak {P}}45 or P. Chester Beatty I) is an early New Testament manuscript which is a part of the Chester Beatty Papyri. It has been paleographically dated to the early 3rd century CE.[1] It contains the texts of Matthew 20-21 and 25-26; Mark 4-9 and 11-12; Luke 6-7 and 9-14; John 4-5 and 10-11; and Acts 4-17.
In general, as previously pointed out, P45 is mysteriously missing the chapters with the most difficult readings:

Lakuna Markata. The Relationship of Lacunae to Difficult Readings

Difficult Reading Missing in P45?
1:1 The son of God Yes
1:2 Isaiah the prophet Yes
1:10 Into him Yes
1:41 Angry Yes
3:5 Angry Yes
10 Secret Mark Yes
13:32 Neither the son Yes
14:28 Galilee Yes
16:8 ending Yes

Specifically, it looks like P45 contained about 1 more chapter than extant GMark:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3507&hilit=P45&start=10#p76795
Quire --------------------39-----------------------------------40--------------------------------------------41----------------------------------------42

Page/-----152-----153-----154----155/-----156--------157-----158-----159/--------160-------161-------162--------163/--------164-------165--
Verse--[Chapter 10]---------------------11:27-33--12:13-28--[Chapter 13]------[Chapter 14]-------[Chapter 15]-------[Chapter 16]

Note = Acts is said to start on Page 168, which would be the first page of quire 43. So it looks to me like the last two pages of quire 42, pages 166 and 167, would be a complete mystery as to what was on them. Maybe an inventory of endings and related commentary like Codex Regius has or maybe just blank pages with Acts starting on a new quire (this goes against the evidence though). The best explanation though may be that P45 Mark contained about a Chapter of additional information, such as Secret Mark.

The explanation in the related article sounds like an Apology to me:
there can be no doubt that the scribe is beginning to reduce drastically the amount of text on the page
[based on the (mis)assumption that P45 = orthodox Mark]

Joseph

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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by davidmartin »

And he comes into Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them."
What if this event in Jericho and the raising of Lazarus refer to the same thing?
The same people are present, but this time Jesus rejects them like the disciples do in the alternative version

this might have been in Mark to deny that the Lazarus story ever happened or was in Mark

You could postulate
* The Lazarus raising was original or from another source
* Another edition with the Jericho denial is in circulation
* Over time the Jericho denial was removed from the orthodox version
* 'Secret Mark' edition contained both accounts caused by someone adding the Bethany story back in

All this sounds like there was no 'secret mark' as such - just different editions of Mark with various bits added and removed

It's also a bit absurd for Jesus to meet them all in Bethany then suddenly meet them again in Jericho, it doesn't make much sense

One last point. This whole naked Lazarus thing.. if it was original it could simply have been an entertaining account to add to the story telling narrative, suitable for the pagan world. Only when it fell on orthodox ears did it not go down so well...
this is the big difference between Mark and John. Mark is a well written narrative but you feel the narrators presence, John seems more personal and familiar. I don't think the people that wrote John would have produced a gospel like Mark

Despite the weighty content of the gospels there does seem to be a concern to tell a good story as well (ie Acts does this a lot) which is a feature of Pagan and Jewish scripture I think. Secret Mark could just be a case of going too far in this direction based on sources we don't know about that might have put things quite differently!
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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

davidmartin wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:04 am
And he comes into Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them."
What if this event in Jericho and the raising of Lazarus refer to the same thing?
I have argued that the call of Levi once stood in between Mark 10.46a and 10.46b. YMMV.
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Re: Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

Post by Secret Alias »

Has anyone ever suggested that Luke could have been derived from Λευείς? The epsilon might have been misread as a kappa = Λευκός
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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