Do You Want To Know A Secret? The Greek Case For Secret Mark.

[Secret Alias]

I'd like to think that lonely people have these absurd positions about what is and isn't possible owing to a lack of friends. But then I saw first hand the pathetic (used in the original Oxford sense) example of Quesnell. He just died alone longing to see his wife again.

[Ken Olson]

Ken so are you saying that there is in John meanings that depend upon certain additional references that are lost to us to explain the text?

No, not at all, though I was allowing the possibility that John used Secret Mark as a source or had a source in common with Secret Mark. In fact, unless one thinks Secret Mark is dependent on John (which I personally consider more likely than not but don't regard as a proven fact) one has to take one of those positions. The story of the the raising of the youth whom Jesus loved that is recounted in Secret Mark is a version of the same story as the raising of Lazarus recounted in John 11. So John used Secret Mark, Secret Mark used John, or they derive from a common source. We could of course hypothesize various intermediary stages (e.e., John is dependent on a story which is dependent on Secret Mark), but those are the three basic options.

I am not suggesting that the meaning of John is dependent on his sources or on knowing his sources. While the traditional ancient view is that John knew the other three gospels and wrote to supplement them (thus the four gospel cannon), I think it more likely he thought they were inadequate and wrote to replace them. (I think Hans Windisch may have been the first scholar to clearly articulate this view in the early 20th century).

What I actually think most likely is that John knew all the synoptic gospels and was correcting their exposition, particularly with regard to who Jesus really was. Most notably none of them clearly state that he pre-existed his incarnation as a human being and was, in fact, God in human form. I say 'clearly state' because some scholars (primarily those at the conservative Christian end) have argued that some passages in the synoptics *imply* this.

if that were the case then one can posit the existence of a primary exegesis to go along with John that ultimately leads one to a fresh and new interpretation but are we not in the realm of alternative understandings of ancient Christianity being a real historical phenomenon
and not just a modern day speculation? Is there anything new under the sun?

I was not advocating such a theory.

Best,

Ken

[JoeWallack]

JW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdcFPjGsm8

GMark

Secret Mark

10 13 And they were bringing unto him little children, that he should touch them: and the disciples rebuked them1). 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was moved with indignation2), and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me; forbid them not: for to such belongeth the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein3). 16 And he took them in his arms, and blessed them, laying his hands upon them4). 17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him5), and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, [even] God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother. 20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth6). 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him7), and said unto him, One thing thou lackest8): go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor9), and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions. 23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Secret Mark And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus5) and says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me." But the disciples rebuked her1). And Jesus, being angered2), went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth6) was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand4). But the youth, looking upon him, loved him7) and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do8) and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body9). And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God3). And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.[19]

Parallels
1)

2) Showing Jesus as angry/indignant is pretty Markan. At this point the question can at least be asked, what is the evidence that Morton Smith's level of understanding of GMark's themes was as high as the upper echelons of scholarship here?

3) I think "little" refers to Paul (paulus). GMark is written as what supposedly happened. It is anachronistically presented as not supposed to be understood in its own time by the characters there (ironically, including Jesus). Subsequently you have to let Paul (and not let the Disciples of Paul's time prevent/rebuke you from coming to Paul) teach you the mystery of the Kingdom of God. What KK said. Galilee (teaching/healing) is supposedly the history but Judea/Jerusalem is The Way/Entry/Salvation/Baalgo!, belief in Jesus' supposed passion. "Mystery" is a dominant Pauline word and "teaching at night" is just code for sleep/dreams/visions/revelations.

4)

5)

6)So we have two youths. One never finds The Way while the other does. What is the difference? Could it be something Jesus said like maybe in the next verse? Stay tombed.

7) KK is on The Way but not there yet. The Markan contrast is what you love, but the specific contrast is loving the material verses loving the spiritual (in this Greek case, Jesus). Jesus loving you will get you Healed/Taught but you have to love Jesus to get into The Kingdom of god. Secret Mark is ironically making the Secret less secret. A few logical possibilities here:

• 1. Default is to accept The Letter. Secret Mark was subsequently written by "Mark" to reduce the secret. As noted P45 appears to have been about
  1 chapter longer for GMark than canonical GMark with a lacunae at Chapter 10 where Secret Mark fits very well. P45 may have been Secret Mark.
  
  2. Someone who understood GMark may have subsequently written Secret Mark to make it less Secret.
  
  3. Secret Mark was just influenced by subsequent Christianity (orthodox) which flipped supposed evidence from negative (what not to do)/revelation to positive/supposed historical witness/evidence.

8)

9)The climax (so to speak) for this series of posts. As in GMark in general Jesus gives the formula for success:

• 1. Give up all your possessions.
  2. Follow Jesus.

And as in GMark in general, failure by this formula is shown due to failure to give up possessions. In the parallel portion of Secret Mark though note that Jesus told the rich youth what to do and the rich youth later shows up wearing only a linen. The implication (for those who have eyes to see) is that the formerly rich youth has given away absolutely everything as a person's clothes would be the last thing they would give. The implication of the verses in total is that the youth did follow Jesus' formula for success. Note especially that the connection between all this is much clearer if the two stories were only separated by a few verses.

The Secret Mark excerpt is still following Paul very well as the youth coming from the tomb dead and immediately following Jesus brings to mind Paul's "being born again". The Pauline influence suggests earlier rather than later.


Joseph

REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know nothing.

The New Porphyry

[Ken Olson]

And as in GMark in general, failure by this formula is shown due to failure to give up possessions. In the parallel portion of Secret Mark though note that Jesus told the rich youth what to do and the rich youth later shows up wearing only a linen. The implication (for those who have eyes to see) is that the formerly rich youth has given away absolutely everything as a person's clothes would be the last thing they would give. The implication of the verses in total is that the youth did follow Jesus' formula for success. Note especially that the connection between all this is much clearer if the two stories were only separated by a few verses.

Joe,

There is a problem with your exegesis of the Markan text here. There is no youth or young man in Mark 10.17-22. The 'man' in English translations of v. 17 is not directly identified as such in the Greek text, but he is inferred to be such as the subject of the verbs ran and knelt. In v. 20 he says to Jesus, 'I have observed all these from my youth." The implication of the text is that he is an adult man and is claiming to have kept these commands for a long time, since he was a youth, not that he is a youth at the time he is speaking to Jesus. The implication of the Lukan version is the same. The man is referred to as a ruler in 18.18 and claims to have kept all these since his youth in 18.21.

The story is sometimes called The Rich Youth or The Rich Young Man, presumably because he is referred to as a youth or young man twice in the Matthean version in 19.20 and 22. But in the Matthean version he says to Jesus: 'I have kept all these; what do I still lack?' (Matt. 19.20). There is no 'from my youth' because it would make no sense for a youth to say he has done something from his youth.

Best,

Ken

[Secret Alias]

Joe,

Clement thought the 'man' was a youth.

Τοῦτον οὖν πρῶτον ἐπιγνῶναι τῷ ζησομένῳ τὴν ὄντως ζωὴν παρακελεύεται, ὃν «οὐδεὶς ἐπιγινώσκει εἰ μὴ ὁ υἱὸς καὶ ᾧ ἂν ὁ υἱὸς ἀποκαλύψῃ», ἔπειτα τὸ μέγεθος τοῦ σωτῆρος μετ' ἐκεῖνον καὶ τὴν καινότητα τῆς χάριτος μαθεῖν, ὅτι δὴ κατὰ τὸν ἀπόστολον «ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ»· καὶ οὐκ ἴσα τὰ διὰ δούλου πιστοῦ διδόμενα τοῖς ὑπὸ [τοῦ] υἱοῦ γνησίου δωρουμένοις. εἰ γοῦν ἱκανὸς ἦν ὁ Μωσέως νόμος ζωὴν αἰώνιον παρασχεῖν, μάτην μὲν ὁ σωτὴρ αὐτὸς παραγίνεται καὶ πάσχει δι' ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ γενέσεως μέχρι τοῦ σημείου τὴν ἀνθρωπότητα διατρέχων, μάτην δὲ ὁ πάσας πεποιηκὼς «ἐκ νεότητος» τὰς νομίμους ἐντολὰς παρὰ ἄλλου αἰτεῖ γονυπετῶν ἀθανασίαν. οὐδὲ γὰρ πεπλήρωκε μόνον τὸν νόμον, ἀλλὰ καὶ εὐθὺς ἀπὸ πρώτης ἡλικίας ἀρξάμενος· ἐπεὶ καὶ τί μέγα ἢ ὑπέρλαμπρον γῆρας ἄγονον ἀδικημάτων ὧν ἐπιθυμίαι τίκτουσι νεανικαὶ ἢ ὀργὴ ζέουσα ἢ ἔρως χρημάτων; ἀλλ' εἴ τις ἐν σκιρτήματι νεοτησίῳ καὶ τῷ καύσωνι τῆς ἡλικίας παρέσχηται φρόνημα πεπανὸν καὶ πρεσβύτερον τοῦ χρόνου, θαυμαστὸς οὗτος ἀγωνιστὴς καὶ διαπρεπὴς καὶ τὴν γνώμην πολιός. ἀλλ' ὅμως οὗτος ὁ τοιοῦτος ἀκριβῶς πέπεισται, διότι αὐτῷ πρὸς μὲν δικαιοσύνην οὐδὲν ἐνδεῖ, ζωῆς δὲ ὅλως προσδεῖ· διὸ αὐτὴν αἰτεῖ παρὰ τοῦ δοῦναι μόνου δυναμένου· καὶ πρὸς μὲν τὸν νόμον ἄγει παρρησίαν, τοῦ θεοῦ δὲ τὸν υἱὸν ἱκετεύει. «ἐκ πίστεως εἰς πίστιν» μετατάσσεται· ὡς σφαλερῶς ἐν νόμῳ σαλεύων καὶ ἐπικινδύνως ναυλοχῶν εἰς τὸν σωτῆρα μεθορμίζεται.

German translation:

Daher ermahnt der Herr den, der nach dem wahren Leben1 strebt, zuerst den kennen zu lernen, den „niemand erkennt als der Sohn und wem es der Sohn offenbart“,2 sondern als zweites nach Gott die Größe des Heilandes und das Neue zu erfassen, das in seiner Gnade besteht; denn nach dem Apostel „wurde das Gesetz durch Moses gegeben, die Gnade und Wahrheit durch Jesus Christus.“3 Denn die durch einen treuen Diener vermittelten Gaben sind nicht gleich wert den durch einen vollbürtigen Sohn gegebenen Geschenken.4 2. Wenn nämlich das Gesetz des Moses fähig gewesen wäre, ewiges Leben zu gewähren, so war es überflüssig, daß der Heiland selbst kommt5 und unsertwegen leidet, indem er von der Geburt bis zum Kreuze6 das ganze menschliche Leben durchläuft;7 und überflüssig war es, daß der, der alle Gebote des Gesetzes „von Jugend auf“8 erfüllt hat, von einem anderen fußfällig die Unsterblichkeit erbittet. 3. Denn er hat nicht nur das Gesetz erfüllt, sondern auch dies gleich von seiner ersten Jugend an getan. Denn was wäre es auch Großes oder Herrliches um ein Greisenalter, das von den Verfehlungen frei ist, die aus den jugendlichen Begierden oder aus brennendem Zorn oder aus Habgier erwachsen? Wenn aber jemand mitten in der frischen Kraft der S. 237 Jugend9 oder in der Glut der Jünglingsjahre Weisheit zeigt und sich so als über sein Alter hinaus zu würdiger Reife gelangt erweist, so ist er ein bewundernswerter und ausgezeichneter Kämpfer, der wegen seiner Weisheit Achtung verdient.10 4. Aber trotzdem ist dieser Jüngling, der sich so verhielt, fest davon überzeugt, daß ihm, wenn ihm auch nichts mehr zur Gerechtigkeit fehlt, doch das Leben völlig fehle; und deswegen erbittet er es von dem, der allein es geben kann. Und hinsichtlich des Gesetzes spricht er zuversichtlich, den Sohn Gottes aber fleht er demütig an. 5. Er geht „von Glauben zu Glauben“11 über. Da sein Lebensschiff im Bereich des Gesetzes unsicher schwankt und an einer gefährlichen Stelle vor Anker liegt, ändert er seinen Platz und wirft Anker bei dem Heiland.

English translation:

He then who would live the true life is enjoined first to know Him whom no one knows, except the Son reveal (Him). Matthew 11:27 Next is to be learned the greatness of the Saviour after Him, and the newness of grace; for, according to the apostle, the law was given by Moses, grace and truth came by Jesus Christ; John 1:17 and the gifts granted through a faithful servant are not equal to those bestowed by the true Son. If then the law of Moses had been sufficient to confer eternal life, it were to no purpose for the Saviour Himself to come and suffer for us, accomplishing the course of human life from His birth to His cross; and to no purpose for him who had done all the commandments of the law from his youth to fall on his knees and beg from another immortality. For he had not only fulfilled the law, but had begun to do so from his very earliest youth. For what is there great or pre-eminently illustrious in an old age which is unproductive of faults? But if one in juvenile frolicsomeness and the fire of youth shows a mature judgment older than his years, this is a champion admirable and distinguished, and hoary pre-eminently in mind. But, nevertheless, this man being such, is perfectly persuaded that nothing is wanting to him as far as respects righteousness, but that he is entirely destitute of life. Wherefore he asks it from Him who alone is able to give it. And with reference to the law, he carries confidence; but the Son of God he addresses in supplication. He is transferred from faith to faith. As perilously tossing and occupying a dangerous anchorage in the law, he makes for the Saviour to find a haven.

The critical line (from the German):

But despite this, this young man who behaved in this way is firmly convinced that, even if he lacks nothing more in righteousness, he is completely lacking in life; and therefore he asks it of him who alone can give it.

which the English renders:

But, nevertheless, this man being such, is perfectly persuaded that nothing is wanting to him as far as respects righteousness, but that he is entirely destitute of life.

The German translator inferred that the youthfulness of Jesus' interlocutor was implied. Note that even in the English translation the gospel figure references observing the Law from his 'earliest youth.'

[Secret Alias]

And confirmation that the 'man' was a Jüngling or a youth is the fixing of the story from the Acts of John to the end of the letter. If the 'man' isn't a 'youth' why on earth would Clement the homily with this story called in German Der gerettete Jüngling? I know 'it's not proof.' Fine. But come on.

Der gerettete Jüngling.

Eine schöne Menschenseele finden,
Ist Gewinn; ein schönerer Gewinn ist,
Sie erhalten, und der schönst’ und schwerste,
Sie, die schon verlohren war, zu retten.

5
Sankt Johannes, aus dem öden Pathmos[1]
Wiederkehrend, war, was er gewesen,
Seiner Heerden Hirt. Er ordnet’ ihnen
Wächter, auf ihr Innerstes aufmerksam.


[286]
In der Menge sah er einen schönen
10
Jüngling; fröhliche Gesundheit glänzte
Vom Gesicht ihm, und aus seinen Augen.
Sprach die Liebevollste Feuerseele.

„Diesen Jüngling, sprach er zu dem Bischof,
Nimm in deine Hut. Mit deiner Treue
Stehst du mir für ihn! – Hierüber zeuge
15
Mir und Dir vor Christo die Gemeine.“

Und der Bischof nahm den Jüngling zu sich,
Unterwies ihn, sah die schönsten Früchte
In ihm blühn, und weil er ihm vertraute,
Ließ er nach von seiner strengen Aufsicht.

20
Und die Freiheit war ein Netz des Jünglings;
Angelockt von süßen Schmeicheleien,
Ward er müßig, kostete die Wohllust,
Dann den Reiz des fröhlichen Betruges.

[287]
Dann der Herrschaft Reiz; er sammlet um sich
25
Seine Spielgesellen, und mit ihnen
Zog er in den Wald, ein Haupt der Räuber.

Als Johannes in die Gegend wieder
Kam; die erste Frag’ an ihren Bischof
War: „wo ist mein Sohn?“ – „Er ist gestorben!“
30
Sprach der Greis und schlug die Augen nieder.
„Wann und Wie?“ – „Er ist Gott abgestorben,
Ist (mit Thränen sag’ ich es) ein Räuber.“

„Dieses Jünglings Seele, sprach Johannes,
Fodr’ ich einst von dir. Jedoch wo ist er?“ –

35
„Auf dem Berge dort!“

– „Ich muß ihn sehen!“

Und Johannes, kaum dem Walde nahend,
Ward ergriffen, (eben dieses wollt’ er.)
„Führet, sprach er, mich zu Eurem Führer.“


[288]
40
Vor ihn trat er! Und der schöne Jüngling
Wandte sich; er konnte diesen Anblick
Nicht ertragen. „Fliehe nicht, o Jüngling,
Nicht, o Sohn, den Waffenlosen Vater,
Einen Greis. Ich habe dich gelobet
45
Meinem Herrn und muß für dich antworten.
Gerne geb’ ich, willst du es, mein Leben
Für dich hin; nur dich fortan verlassen
Kann ich nicht! Ich habe dir vertrauet,
Dich mit meiner Seele Gott verpfändet.“

50
Weinend schlang der Jüngling seine Arme
Um den Greis, bedeckete sein Antlitz,
Stumm und starr; dann stürzte statt der Antwort
Aus den Augen ihm ein Strom von Thränen.

Auf die Kniee sank Johannes nieder,
55
Küßte seine Hand und seine Wange,
Nahm ihn neugeschenket vom Gebürge,
Läuterte sein Herz mit süßer Flamme.


[289]
Jahre lebten sie jetzt unzertrennet
Mit einander; in den schönen Jüngling
60
Goß sich ganz Johannes schöne Seele.

* * *

Sagt, was war es, was das Herz des Jünglings
Also tief erkannt’ und innig festhielt?
Und es wiederfand, und unbezwingbar
Rettete? Ein Sankt-Johannes Glaube,
65
Zutraun, Vestigkeit und Lieb’ und Wahrheit.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION

The rescued youth.

find a beautiful soul
is profit; a better win is
You get, and the most beautiful and heaviest,
To rescue her who was already lost.

5
Saint John, from the desolate Pathmos[1]
Returning was what he was
Shepherd of his flocks. He orders them
Guardian, attentive to her innermost being.


[286]
In the crowd he saw a beautiful one
10
Youth; happy health shone
From his face, and from his eyes.
Spoke the most loving fire soul.

"This young man," he said to the bishop,
Take in your hat. with your loyalty
stand up for him! - Witness about this
15
Me and you before Christ the congregation."

And the bishop took the young man
Taught him, saw the most beautiful fruit
blossom in him, and because he trusted him,
He relaxed from his strict supervision.

20
And freedom was a youth's net;
Lured by sweet flattery,
Was he idle, tasted pleasure,
Then the allure of merry cheating.

[287]
Then the charm of dominion; he gathers around himself
25
His playmates, and with them
He went into the forest, a head of robbers.

When Johannes returned to the area
Came; the first question to your bishop
Was: "Where is my son?" - "He died!"
30
The old man said and lowered his eyes.
"When and how?" - "He died to God,
Is (I say it with tears) a robber."

"The soul of this young man," said John,
I fodr' once of you. But where is he?”

35
"On that mountain there!"

- "I have to see him!"

And John, scarcely approaching the forest,
Was seized (this is what he wanted.)
"Lead me," he said, "to your guide."


[288]
40
He stepped before him! And the beautiful young man
Turned; he could see that
not endure. "Do not flee, O young man,
Not, O son, the unarmed father,
an old man. i have promised you
45
My Lord and must answer for you.
I'm happy to give you my life if you want it
for you; only leave you from now on
I can not! I trusted you
You pledged to God with my soul.”

50
The youth clasped his arms, crying
Around the old man, covered his face,
mute and rigid; then crashed instead of the answer
A stream of tears flowed from his eyes.

John fell to his knees,
55
kissed his hand and his cheek,
Took him newly gifted from the mountains,
Cleansed his heart with sweet flame.


[289]
Years they lived now undivided
Together; into the beautiful young man
60
Poured himself all Johannes beautiful soul.

* * *

Say, what was it, what was the heart of the young man
So deeply recognized and held tight?
And found it again, and invincible
saved? A Saint John Faith
65
Confidence, solidity and love and truth.

I can't possibly see how this story would fit with the scene from Secret Mark fitting right after Mark 10:17 - 32 ...

[Ken Olson]

I'd like to think that lonely people have these absurd positions about what is and isn't possible owing to a lack of friends.

Are you lonesome tonight?

[Secret Alias]

I'd have to be pretty lonesome to want to cuddle up with you. But you never know.

[Secret Alias]

I will tell you what I find unattractive about you. What's a turn off is the fact you pretend with such confidence that there is only one right interpretation to Mark. And then when I show you that Clement contradicts you bombast, it doesn't even register. I don't find that attractive. Definite turn off.

For not only did he fulfill the law, but he did it from the very beginning of his youth. For what would be great or glorious about an old age free from the transgressions that spring from youthful desires, or from burning anger, or from covetousness? But if a man, in the midst of the fresh vigor of youth or in the ardor of youth, shows wisdom and thus proves himself to have reached worthy maturity beyond his old age, he is an admirable and distinguished combatant, deserving of respect for his wisdom. But despite this, this young man who behaved in this way is firmly convinced that, even if he lacks nothing more in righteousness, he is completely lacking in life; and therefore he asks it of him who alone can give it. And concerning the law he speaks confidently, but humbly supplicates the Son of God

Definite turn off to see someone who allows personal dislike TIME AND AGAIN to get in the way of admitting you're full of shit. Please erudite magister teach me the true interpretation of the gospel of Mark.. Don't allow Clement describing Jesus's interlocutor as a youth to get in the way of you teaching us the truth!

You're just big wind bag. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

You're just big wind bag. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Sometimes I have the impression that Secret Mark is as sacred to you as the trinity belief is to others. Take it easy!

I think that Secret Mark is a good fake. The author has largely copied Markan word usage, syntax and certain literary motifs. Rather its weakness is that it gives the impression of being mechanically copied while Mark didn't repeat himself to the letter but slightly varied phrases he commonly used. The copying becomes obvious when the author also adopts Johannine phrases and motifs in the second part.

Imho, his biggest flaw is the Johannine way of using Bethany. In GMark, Bethany only plays a role after the entry to Jerusalem, in GJohn only before the entry. In GJohn it is characterized as a rather friendly place where Lazarus, Martha and Mary reside, who are Jesus' best friends. In GMark, Bethany is characterized more as a miserable and desolate village with a leper and many poor, where Jesus gets hungry and faces internal opposition. The author of SM has taken the Johannine side here. He also gets into a real flow of narration in this episode, rather than confining himself to Mark's extremely concise and sketchy narrative style with narrow twists.