The Odes of Solomon are very gnostic...

[Giuseppe]

So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies.
And she labored and bore the Son but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose.
And she did not require a midwife, because He caused her to give life.
She brought forth like a strong man with desire, and she bore according to the manifestation, and she acquired according to the Great Power.

http://gnosis.org/library/odes.htm


Gospel of Thomas 114:

Simon Peter said to them, "Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female (element) that makes itself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

The demiurge destroyed the original unity of the Primordial Man by taking Eve from the Adam's rib. An euphemism to say that the demiurge dismembered the Gnostic savior Jesus at the origin of the world (=the same sense of the Parable of Sower, where the Sower is originally the Demiurge who "dismembers" the divine parts of Jesus).

In Mary, who gave birth without knowing a man, both sexes are reunited once again. And the man in the image of god (the supreme god, not the creator) is reconstitued.

Hence the Odes are originally a Gnostic anti-nomian work, later judaized in the points where god is identified with the demiurge.

[davidmartin]

The timeline for me has the Gnostic idea with a demiurge didn't emerge until the late 1st century with Saturninus and similar people

His ideas contrasted with those of Satornilus and the Satornilians, who believed the world was made by only seven angels against the will of a "Father on high".[

The Odes dating before this time mean they can't be originally Gnostic of the kind in say Apocryphon of John.
If your theory has those Gnostic ideas dating earlier sure, then that's possible but that's just not what i think happened

[Giuseppe]

If the Odes are not gnostic in the sense of the term "gnostic" used usually by me (as rebel against the demiurge), then hardly I may explain the reference to a Mary "who brought forth like a strong man" in Ode 9, since it is rather evident the idea of a woman who has to become "male" in the act itself.

So what? A possibility is that the Odes have to be moved in 2° CE, to make them fall under the gnostic influence.

In alternative, have you a better explanation for a Mary "like a strong man etc"?

[davidmartin]

Guiseppe you would have to pick the most difficult of the odes, 19!

there could be proto-gnostic elements in the odes maybe but i'm not willing to go beyond this point, because it would break my theory!
i don't think the odes are judaised just naturally jewish and unredacted
i think there's some 'judaising' going on though in other writings around the sayings of Jesus and stuff

[Ben C. Smith]

Guiseppe you would have to pick the most difficult of the odes, 19!

there could be proto-gnostic elements in the odes maybe but i'm not willing to go beyond this point, because it would break my theory!
i don't think the odes are judaised just naturally jewish and unredacted
i think there's some 'judaising' going on though in other writings around the sayings of Jesus and stuff

What if the Odes are a collection of songs in exactly the same way as modern hymnbooks are collections of songs? That is, what if the songs date to different time periods and have different authors?

[MrMacSon]

The timeline for me has the Gnostic idea with a demiurge didn't emerge until the late 1st century with Saturninus and similar people

His ideas contrasted with those of Satornilus and the Satornilians, who believed the world was made by only seven angels against the will of a "Father on high".

The Odes dating before this time mean they can't be originally Gnostic of the kind in say Apocryphon of John.
If your theory has those Gnostic ideas dating earlier sure, then that's possible but that's just not what i think happened

For full context, that quote is from the Wikipedia page about Menander, -

.
Menander (Greek: Μένανδρος) was a first-century CE Samaritan gnostic, magician and a leader of the Simonians following the death of his master and instructor, Simon Magus, who was in Rome during the reign of Emperor Claudius [r. 41 - 54 AD] ... Justin Martyr is the oldest source of knowledge about Menander after he met some of the devoted Menandrians in their old age.* Justin suggested that Menander was born in Cappareteia and established a school in Antioch where he announced himself the messiah and vowed to defeat the angels that were keeping the world in captivity, possibly through exorcism.

When the Simonians divided during the Gnostic schism, Menander called his part of the sect Menandrians, holding the belief that the world was made by angels. His ideas contrasted with those of Satornilus and the Satornilians, who believed the world was made by only seven angels against the will of a "Father on high". Menander held that a water baptism was essential as the source for eternal youth.

Menander held solid to the belief that as head of the church, he was the savior and Power of God. Menander maintained that "the primary power continues unknown to all but that he himself is the person who has been sent forth from the presence of the invisible beings as a savior, for the deliverance of men".2

Other magicians including Basilides and Cerdo became followers of Menander and were said to have "given immense development to his doctrines" with differing ethical consequences. It has been suggested that some of those who tried to interpret the doctrines of Menander, such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, took things far too literally. Irenaeus for instance, claimed that those in receipt of Menander's water baptism no longer grew old and became immortal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_(gnostic)

* Such statements about meeting followers in their old age in those times and in relation to early Christianity are fairly common, so one wonder if they should be taken with a grain of salt.

2 G. van Groningen (1967). First Century Gnosticism: Its Origin and Motifs. Brill Archive. pp. 144–.

[MrMacSon]

re

.
Justin suggested that Menander was born in Cappareteia and established a school in Antioch where he announced himself the messiah and vowed to defeat the angels that were keeping the world in captivity, possibly through exorcism.

Menander held solid to the belief that as head of the church, he was the savior and Power of God. Menander maintained that "the primary power continues unknown to all but that he himself is the person who has been sent forth from the presence of the invisible beings as a savior, for the deliverance of men".2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_(gnostic)

From another thread -

... [the Odes] seem kind of overlooked. If Nag Ham and DSS hadn't been found, I'm sure they'd be getting a lot of attention. Seems a bit unfair!

A Marcionite hymnbook, well maybe they used them; not so sure they are pure Marcionism though. Some think the Valentinians used them.
Wasn't Basilides supposed to have had one as well? .. probably they all had hymns

The thing I notice was the odes familiarity with the messiah; definitely they stake out a bold set of claims one of which is potential for a 1st century date which is a pretty limited set of writings
.

[Ben C. Smith]

For full context, that quote is from the Wikipedia page about Menander, -

.

....

When the Simonians divided during the Gnostic schism, Menander called his part of the sect Menandrians, holding the belief that the world was made by angels. His ideas contrasted with those of Satornilus and the Satornilians, who believed the world was made by only seven angels against the will of a "Father on high". Menander held that a water baptism was essential as the source for eternal youth.

....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_(gnostic)

* Such statements about meeting followers in their old age in those times and in relation to early Christianity are fairly common, so one wonder if they should be taken with a grain of salt.

One of my favorite musical lyrics of all time:

Did the Devil make the world while God was sleeping?

⁠— Tom Waits, "Little Drop of Poison."

[Secret Alias]

Again the basic question is - to what degree are the Patristic reports ACCURATE. The accounts of Basildes don't match. Why do we think the other accounts of heretics are a roadmap?

[perseusomega9]

Guiseppe you would have to pick the most difficult of the odes, 19!

there could be proto-gnostic elements in the odes maybe but i'm not willing to go beyond this point, because it would break my theory!
i don't think the odes are judaised just naturally jewish and unredacted
i think there's some 'judaising' going on though in other writings around the sayings of Jesus and stuff

What if the Odes are a collection of songs in exactly the same way as modern hymnbooks are collections of songs? That is, what if the songs date to different time periods and have different authors?

I was reading them the other day and the section seems to be baptismal liturgy. Reading with that in mind, I began wondering if the parts where God speaks directly is where the priest would read.