Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

Of the same tenor of the previous post:

the author of Acts betrayes again himself (he was really stupid!) when he says that the name of the original sect was "the Way".

Mark says us who is pointing out that "way":

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

(Mark 1:3)

Again and again, the pattern is the same:
  • The only things Mark didn't derive from Paul were relative to "the baptism of John".
  • The "baptism of John" was the original name of the sect of "Mark" (before the latter's conversion to paulinism): the "Way" (since Mark has John pointing out the "Way").
  • All is judaized: the "Way" becomes "the Way of the Lord" (=YHWH). The "baptism of John" is of "John" (="YHWH-gives-grace"), the disciples were the sons "of Zebedee" (="YHWH-gives-grace").
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

Now, who is pointing the way, he is openly preaching a message.

John himself is a public figure. Even if he is put in the wilderness, a lot of people come to him.

Is "Mark" (previously an apollinist, now a pauline) going against all that open publicity about the way, "by the way side"?

And these are they by the way (ὁδὸν) side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

(Mark 14:15)

Satan is enemy of YHWH (for Mark). But for the Gnostics YHWH himself was Satan. Hence is Mark addressing against the Gnostics (the original followers of the "way" pointed out by "John" before the latter was called "John"?) what the Gnostics themselves addressed originally against the Judaizers? That they were deceived by the demiurge insofar the demiurge was "to take away the word that was sown in their hearts" ?

In that case, Mark is strongly contrary to the arrogant too much public propaganda of the Gnostics:

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


ADDENDA:

  • John the Baptist revealed openly the "Way" to have their sins forgiven.
  • Mark's Jesus is doing the exact contrary.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

Someway, the "Baptism of John" (alias the "Way", alias apollonism), had the sins forgiven as effect of the revelation of the "way", but by who were these sins forgiven? By the unknown Father (not the god of Jews).

Mark doesn't want that these sins are forgiven, hence he doesn't want, against John, the public revelation of the "way". His god is a god of justice.

His god is YHWH.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

About the original meaning of the "Way", I have already talked in another thread about "John" being the guy who sends the people to their celestial fatherland, along the "Way", by giving them the 7 breads multiplied ad nauseam et ad infinitum.

The pauline "Mark" (Judaizer) merged that distinct tradition (coming from Apollonism) with that of the 12 breads (coming from Paul): now "John" (=YHWH gives grace) is replaced by Jesus (=YHWH gives salvation), and this Jesus gives the 12 breads multiplied ad nauseam et ad infinitum, not to make them to ascend to heaven, but to make them return to their earthly homes.

Originally, the "Way", the name of the sect, was the direction to go to heaven.

In other terms: gnosis.

But are there other missing rings between Apollonism and the "Baptism of John" ?

It is sufficient to inquiry further on John the Baptist.

I can say already now that John the Baptist is the key to decipher the Christian Origins.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

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Note that what I am reconstructing here is a view absolutely different from what René Salm says about John the Baptist:

1. A PREACHER (“Teacher”) is born in Palestine towards the beginning of the common era. He claims to have found answers to the ultimate questions facing mankind and attempts to teach others the “Way” to understanding and fulfillment. His teachings conform to the Gnostic type and are fundamentally secular—the exercise of human reason and the application of effort towards the “understanding of life” (Mandaic: manda d’hayye).


2. THE REBELLION: The Teacher challenges the religious institutions of his time and place (as did the Buddha and Zoroaster before him). He considers Jewish teachings useless and misleading: cant, rite, sacrifice, and obedience. Though born a Hebrew, he rebels against Judaism.

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2012/11/ ... y-my-view/

The great error about the "Research for the Historical John the Baptist" is to believe that John was a historical person, even if he was named not John (a name that could be part and parcel of the Conspiracy designed to eclipse the real "baptism of John" , i.e. the real Apollonism). It is too much evident here that the error of Salm is to believe that a man has to be discovered, behind "John".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

The chronological order of the events is the following:

1) two distinct Jesuan traditions:
  • ( A) the Pillars and Paul (their Jesus crucified in outer space)
  • (B) and the "baptism of John" (before it was known as "of John": I call it apollonism in absence of better terms). Their Jesus is crucified in outer space, too.



2)
The apollonism is identified as "Christians who know only the baptism of John".

3) A pauline writer ("Mark") invented the his Gospel Jesus by merging the "Baptism of John" with the paulinism.

4) the other gospels follow passively Mark (and only Mark), with the effects already known to us.

Note that before "Mark", the apollonism was already judaized by connecting their baptism with the name of John (="It is YHWH who gives grace"). John, in virtue of his name, was by that time already an icon of the Judaizers, only, the error was to judaize the wrong symbol/concept. Jesus had to be judaized, from this time. The judaization of apollonism was not sufficient.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:00 am Note that before "Mark", the apollonism was already judaized by connecting their baptism with the name of John (="It is YHWH who gives grace"). John, in virtue of his name, was by that time already an icon of the Judaizers, only, the error was to judaize the wrong symbol/concept. Jesus had to be judaized, from this time. The judaization of apollonism was not sufficient.
According to Corpus Hermeticum IV:4-6, what was only necessary to proclaim the Baptism as the sacrament of νοῦς, was a mortal harald preaching it, a harald sent by Hermes. Who wanted to judaize this figure (but without the observance of the Torah), had only to identify this mortal harald in the past history, if he existed, or he could invent him ex nihilo.

Apocalypticism played a role, here. If this is the end of the times, that harald had to be already come. But he had to precede the Jewish Messiah. Not more the gift of gnosis.

What has to be given is further evidence for this euhemerization of a mythical (even if mortal) harald in a Jewish figure named John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

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Was (what I have called previously as) Apollonism the sect of Apollonius of Tyana?

Apollonius (in Arabic Balínús) is often associated with Hermes. There he is depicted as the discoverer and representative of Hermes' teachings on the secrets of creation that had been lost to the generations before him

https://bahai-library.com/brown_hermes_apollonius

Note the link:

Hermes--->Apollonius of Tyana-->Apollos follower of the "Baptism of John"---> John the Baptist.

Already in the late antiquity Apollonius became connected with the works of the famous Hermes Trismegistos... This is confirmed by two sources.

https://books.google.it/books?id=HjXhr- ... es&f=false
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

Post by Giuseppe »

Hermes was euhemerized as Moses, by Artapanus:


ARTAPANUS:

By: Crawford Howell Toy, Louis Ginzberg
Historian; lived in Alexandria in the second century B.C. He wrote a history of the Jews, parts of which have been preserved in the writings of the church-fathers Eusebius ("Præparatio Evangelica," ix. 18, 23) and Clement of Alexandria ("Stromata," i. 23, 154), as well as in those of some later authors. Freudenthal shows that both Alexander Polyhistor and Josephus made use of Artapanus' work. The fragments that have survived enable one to form an opinion—not a very flattering one—as to the merits of their author. Artapanus evidently belonged to that narrowminded circle of Hellenizing Jews that were unable to grasp what was truly great in Judaism, and, therefore, in their mistaken apologetic zeal—for even in those early days Judaism had its opponents among the Hellenes—set about glorifying Judaism to the outer world by inventing all manner of fables concerning the Jews. As an illustration of this method, the following account of Moses will serve. According to Artapanus (Eusebius, ibid. ix. 27), Moses is he whom the Greeks called Musæus; he was, however, not (as in the Greek legend) the pupil, but the teacher, of Orpheus. Wherefore Moses is not only the inventor of many useful appliances and arts, such as navigation, architecture, military strategy, and of philosophy, but is also—this is peculiar to Artapanus—the real founder of the Greek-Egyptian worship. By the Egyptians, whose political system he organized, Moses was called Hermes διἁ τῶν τῶν ἱερῶν γραμμάτων ἑρμηνείαν ("because he expounded the writings of the priests").

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -artapanus
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Was "Mark", just as Apollos, learned in paulinism?

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Celsus suspected partially the truth, insofar he realizes the co-optation of the Egyptian myth of Hermes by the Christians:

For he represents him disputing with Jesus, and confuting Him, as he thinks, on many points; and in the first place, he accuses Him of having invented his birth from a virgin, and upbraids Him with being born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a God.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04161.htm

Replace the "miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves" with the gnosis gained by the Baptism of Hermes (adored particularly in Egypt) and you have a Jesus who, by going to John the Baptist (=euhemerized Hermes), went really to "Egypt" to acquiry the faculty of gnosis: νοῦς.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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