perseusomega9 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:39 pm
The docetism was first. Look at the record in the NT of when Jesus became lord or messiah. In the kenosis hymn and Roman's at his resurrection, at his baptism in mark, at his birth in matt/luke, his prexistence in john. In jewish apocalyptic still waiting him to come on the clouds. Birth traditions are late.
But Paul cals Jesus a man elsewhere in Romans (and to the extent of likening him to Adam).
5:12-15:
Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
My understanding of Paul is that Jesus became a spiritual being (or, rather, the "son of God
in power") after dying as a man, as per Rom. 1:4 and 1 Cor. 15:42-44:
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
And my understanding of Mark is that it espouses adoptionism, and while there is no birth narrative in Mark, it says (by both the author of Mark and the crowd in the scene) that Jesus had a mother and brothers, which implies that he was a man.
3:31-32:
Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
That Jesus rejects them (or, rather, broadens the meaning of "mother" and "brothers") doesn't negate that the author of Mark says he had a human mother and brothers. And Mk. 6:3 names his mother and brothers and adds that he also had sisters (and a
job, which would be odd for a phantom to have):
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?”
And whether they believed in a virgin birth or not, all Jewish Christians (including Nazarenes, who in my view are the earliest Christians) are said to have beleived that Jesus was a man, which is in keeping with Paul and Mark.
As for the Philippians Hymn, I think it is more in keeping with adoptionism (i.e, that the spiritual Christ-being entered Jesus at some point in his life) than docetism because it says that Jesus died ("he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death").