Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:01 am You have very dogmatic beliefs. John2 allows you to experiment. Mazel Tov!

I thought I was "Bob." What happened to that? I would prefer to be "Nehemia" though (as in Gordon). I once had trouble understanding the meaning of Lev. 19:27 and he makes a great case that it is about not shaving in mourning rather than being required to wear a beard all the time. And I tend to agree with his interpretations of the OT overall and his take on Jesus having proto-Karaite views.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
jschroeder
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by jschroeder »

I am curious what is the summary of this question?

Did Matthew infact write the Gospel first in Hebrew?
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mlinssen
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by mlinssen »

jschroeder wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am I am curious what is the summary of this question?

Did Matthew infact write the Gospel first in Hebrew?
The short answer:

Of course not, that's all mere fantasy and wishful thinking, just like Christianity itself. All of it a Roman product, brought to the audience in bad Greek
andrewcriddle
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by andrewcriddle »

jschroeder wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am I am curious what is the summary of this question?

Did Matthew infact write the Gospel first in Hebrew?
The statement in Papias probably indicates the existence of an early Aramaic or Hebrew version of Matthew.
IMHO this version was based on Greek Matthew rather than the other way round.

Andrew Criddle
Steven Avery
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Steven Avery »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:35 pm Yes, the examples by Jean Carmignac on imitations from Hebrew to Greek (most of them in Mark) are very troubling for me.
But "Mark" would be translations (as judging from the English rendition) do not show he 'tortured' them in order to fit the Hebrew.
On the plus side Neil Godfrey concluded on another post, after some research, that "Luke" did not know about Matthew. I found that out from my own study by different ways. ...
Cordially, Bernard
I am interested in any papers that show Luke (who I believe wrote to the high priest Theophilus c. AD 40) did not know Matthew's Gospel.

Any help appreciated!

Thanks!

Steven
ebion
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by ebion »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:46 pm I acknowledge Matthew and Q and Mark have Aramaisms into them, but is it enough to use that for an Hebrew/Aramaic origin of these texts (in particular for Matthew)?
I think we can finally answer that question.

Stanford Rives reconstructed the Original Gospel of Matthew and wrote a 3 volume work looking at all of the differences, including the middle-aged Hebrew ones.

But if you ignore the middle-aged Hebrew ones as I do, the differences between the early Greek citations are slight and pale by comparison with the Aramaicisms that are simply Howlers in the Greek TR. They show up across the NT, not just Matthew, but there are enough in Matthew to show the TR came from Aramaic.

I drew them mainly out of a book elaborated on peshitta.org, Was the New Testament Originally Written in Aramaic using only the first 2 chapters, which are the strongest part. The wordplays like Jean Carmignac puts forward have an equivalent in chapter 3 of the book: Poetry and Word Plays. I know that there are some good ones in there, so take a look there for the equivalent in Aramaic in there.

He lists 28 of them, but before I spent the time on them, I'm waiting for someone to successfuly rebut any of the Howlers from the first 2 chapters first - no one has so far. Some of the wordplays are quite strong, and some very beautiful; I feel the beauty of them even comes through in the english translation. What you should find is that some of the wordplays swing both ways, if the roots are equivalent in Hebrew and Aramaic. But I recall that he points out some wordplays that only work in Aramaic, not Hebrew.
Last edited by ebion on Sun Nov 12, 2023 3:20 pm, edited 8 times in total.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Again, caution about any poster who confuses Hebrew and Aramaic.
Steven Avery
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Standford Rives on the Hebrew Matthew and Calvin-Servetus

Post by Steven Avery »

ebion wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 2:32 pm I think we can finally answer that question.

Stanford Rives reconstructed the Original Gospel of Matthew and wrote a 3 volume work looking at all of the differences, including the middle-aged Hebrew ones.
Quite a flawed methodology.

Original Gospel of Matthew Vol. 1: The Variants from the Earliest Matthew in Hebrew (2012)
Standford Rives
https://books.google.com/books?id=wOV-EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA5

Standford Rives wrote:
Three Primary Sources To Restore Matthew

Scholarship now has given us three primary resources to consider—the Shem-Tob Hebrew Matthew from the 1300s, the Tillet Hebrew Matthew found at Rome in the 1500s and the Sebastian Munster Hebrew Matthew translated in 1537. To recover the original, we can combine these Hebrew sources with the oldest quotes of the Hebrew and Greek Matthew in the early-church literature. Combined, this will derive what is presumably closer to the original and most authentic writing of the Apostle Matthew.
Calling these primary resources begs the question of their being medieval creations.

Volume 2
Original Gospel of Matthew Vol. 2: The Appendices To Explain The Earliest Matthew
https://books.google.com/books?id=SuZ-E ... &q&f=false

Volume 3
Original Gospel of Matthew Vol. III: The Final Reconstruction of the Earliest Matthew
https://books.google.com/books?id=YOZ-E ... &q&f=false

Standford Rives is more famous for his book on Calvin and Servetus.

Did Calvin Murder Servetus?
https://books.google.com/books?id=MlPrYQ5srKEC&pg=PR1

A lot of bias and looseness, unreliable without checking, however he comes up with some interesting stuff.

Is there any bio or contact information?

Other links

Standford Rives
https://standfordrives.wordpress.com/

Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew
https://web.archive.org/web/20201023190 ... cle-on-ogm

The Original Gospel of Matthew
http://www.holysophiaachamoth.com/gnost ... 2=0&id=649
ebion
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by ebion »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:55 am
jschroeder wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am I am curious what is the summary of this question?

Did Matthew infact write the Gospel first in Hebrew?
The statement in Papias probably indicates the existence of an early Aramaic or Hebrew version of Matthew.
IMHO this version was based on Greek Matthew rather than the other way round.
Jerome says clearly that a/the version in HAramaic was under controlled access in a library in Caesarea, which to me implies it was a master copy.

And the KJV Howlers prove the GreekTextus Receptus come from Aramaic.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Jerome, of course, did not use the term "HAramaic."
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