nightshadetwine wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:47 pm
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're saying a deity isn't actually "risen" or "resurrected" because they weren't resurrected in the exact way Jesus was. This is completely irrelevant, it doesn't matter if it's not exactly the same. Although the resurrection texts do describe the deceased being resurrected very similar to Jesus. They're said to get up, shake off the dirt/dust and bandages, and ascend out of their tomb to the sky "Just like Osiris". So even if Osiris wasn't resurrected in the same way Jesus was, the people who are ritually identified with Osiris are resurrected like Jesus. They're literally described in the texts as getting up and ascending to the sky. That's how they got to the netherworld, by ascending to the sky.
So it doesn't matter if you personally don't think Osiris was "resurrected" or "risen" because
the Egyptians did. To the Egyptians, Osiris completely conquered and overcame death. This is why they hoped to share in his resurrection. It's the same concept as Jesus.
Also you don't need to block quote at me. I've read all the books you've cited and have them on my shelves.
I'd add Osiris is such a huge problem not even Mettinger considers him a dying-rising god as of 2004.
I "block quote" you because it sounds like you need to re-read those books. You don't seem to understand that Osiris was resurrected and risen according to the ancient Egyptians. It doesn't matter what you or Mettinger think about Osiris, it's what the Egyptians thought about Osiris. He was a "risen" deity that overcame death and offered them salvation.
1) Incorrect. I'm saying what it means to "rise" or "resurrect" is culturally specific and therefore, the fact that a myth seems similar on the surface has no bearing on whether or not it constitutes the *same* or a *parallel* myth elsewhere. Also the resurrection texts do not literally think that he will physically get up... they were well aware that this is not the same as Jesus, because they continued moving the mummies around. Again, that a text says something in narrative does not actually mean that we should take it as a literal belief. The description does not indicate the intricacy of belief. Yes, Osiris conquered and overcame death to the Egyptians. But how he did that is culturally specific and distinct.
2) I completely understand there is a difference between a text description in myth, and how Egyptians literally believed. They knew their kings did not physically get up in this life. They did so in the *afterlife* (this is also why the *dead* king is identified with Osiris directly, whereas the successor becomes identified with Horus).
3) He was a deity who overcame death by being alive in death. That is why I say Egyptian resurrection is culturally specific. As Burkert noted, it was a "transcendent life beyond death." In his death, he gains life and so simultaneously is dead and alive, transcending death and overcoming it, while also embodying it. Thus, the dead king is identified with Osiris to come to a transcendent life, while the living king is with Horus. I'd add that Metzger was able to demonstrate that during the time of Christianity, Egyptians clearly believed that Osiris' body was buried in Egypt somewhere (identifying some 20 locations associated with it, actually). Thus, the idea he was bodily resurrected in a physical earthly sense is nuts, demonstrating that there is divide between ritual text (the Pyramid Texts) and actual beliefs. Rituals are often mythologized, but are not direct 1 to 1 beliefs of what happened. We see this same thing in magical texts as well (such as the PGM series) and with propaganda pieces (Marduk Ordeal Text). The mere fact that you can point around to narratives means very little if you aren't applying any critical theory or method and examining what Egyptians actually believed, because myths and narratives are actually widely debated as to whether they represent beliefs... which everyone with a PhD in religious studies has long recognized. My entire point is that while they believed he rose, the narratives we have do not necessarily (in fact we know they don't) have a direct correspondence to what Egyptians believed, especially when we look at text genres. Ritual texts function through a huge amount of metaphor and creative writing, as the Pyramid Texts do. But it is clear from other texts we have, that they did not literally think that a dead king got up and walked around... kind of hard to think that if you are moving their corpse around to safer locations.
Walter Burkert, Structure and History in Greek Mythology and Ritual (Berkeley: University of California Press, paperback 1982) 101
Tryggve Mettinger, Reviewed Work(s): Quando un dio muore: Morti e assenze divine nelle antiche tradizioni mediterranee by Paolo Xella, History of Religions 43.4 (2004)
Henri Frankfort, Kingship and the Gods (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1948) 185
Geraldine Pinch, Egyptian Mythology (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002) 7, 16, and 156
Bruce Metzger, Historical and Literary Studies: Pagan, Jewish, and Christian (Leiden: Brill, 1968) 21