James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

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Secret Alias
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by Secret Alias »

I found the Armenian and Latin text of De Animalibus https://books.google.com/books?id=At1oA ... 22&f=false

Sorry I didn't see what you wrote before posting. What a thoroughly fascinating treatise!
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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andrewcriddle
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:59 am
Thanks. I definitely have those passages bookmarked for further investigation in a text file of mine. Do you think that James appears in Thomas because the Naassenes (or their spiritual predecessors) claimed special knowledge from him? Or do you think that the Naassenes (or their spiritual predecessors) made that claim because James appears in Thomas?
IMVHO James appears in Thomas because the spiritual predecessors of the Naassenes claimed special knowledge from him.

Andrew Criddle
davidmartin
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by davidmartin »

andrewcriddle wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:09 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:59 am
Thanks. I definitely have those passages bookmarked for further investigation in a text file of mine. Do you think that James appears in Thomas because the Naassenes (or their spiritual predecessors) claimed special knowledge from him? Or do you think that the Naassenes (or their spiritual predecessors) made that claim because James appears in Thomas?
IMVHO James appears in Thomas because the spiritual predecessors of the Naassenes claimed special knowledge from him.

Andrew Criddle
So you could propose a scenario where the Naassenes are a later divergent group who based their authority on the same traditions behind the gospel of thomas. The Naassenes as reported based their beliefs on their syncretism with the mysteries, so you can argue quite easily that they were not preserving unchanged whatever they claimed to have received, but as the bold statements in their writings indicate held a superior understanding of what it all meant. that's what i recon, they received a mystical tradition that they interpreted according to their own syncretism, and that tradition could easily be something along the lines of the gospel of thomas. so trying to understand the original context of how thomas was first understood is as obscured in the naassene writings as it is when the church fathers try to explain those sayings
John2
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by John2 »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:12 am There seems to be some connection between the Gospel of Thomas and the Naassenes as described by Hippolytus
E.G.
And concerning this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: He who seeks me, will find me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be made manifest. This, however, is not (the teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: A child of seven years is half of a father. And so it is that these (heretics), placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and) having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to Thomas, he is manifested
If so, then the passage about James in the Gospel of Thomas may be related to the Naassenes claim to have received secret tradition from James.
These are the heads of very numerous discourses which (the Naassene) asserts James the brother of the Lord handed down to Mariamne. In order, then, that these impious (heretics) may no longer belie Mariamne or James, or the Saviour Himself, let us come to the mystic rites (whence these have derived their figment) — to a consideration, if it seems right, of both the Barbarian and Grecian (mysteries) — and let us see how these (heretics), collecting together the secret and ineffable mysteries of all the Gentiles, are uttering falsehoods against Christ, and are making dupes of those who are not acquainted with these orgies of the Gentiles. For since the foundation of the doctrine with them is the man Adam, and they say that concerning him it has been written, Who shall declare his generation? Isaiah 53:8 learn how, partly deriving from the Gentiles the undiscoverable and diversified generation of the man, they fictitiously apply it to Christ.
Andrew Criddle

I'm liking this. And when you couple it with Papias not mentioning Thomas, it looks to me like Thomas is later than Mark and Matthew (at the very least), and since I date Papias c. 100 CE, Thomas could be later than that, unless one supposes that Papias was unaware of it, which is not impossible but seems unnecessary to me.

While I think Luke and Acts were written c. 95 CE and Papias doesn't mention them either, I suspect that is because they didn't have enough time to circulate and come to his attention, and if Mark and Matthew were derived from Thomas, I think Papias' sources would have said so. I would thus date Thomas after Mark (which I date c. 70 CE) and Matthew, but possibly before 100 CE. Just my guess.
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Secret Alias
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

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How can an argument from silence work with Papias? Only scraps survive.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by John2 »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:57 am How can an argument from silence work with Papias? Only scraps survive.

I figure that if Papias had known any gospels besides Mark and Mathew that Eusebius or someone else who knew him would have said so. I think MacDonald makes a good case for this (at least for Luke-Acts) in Two Shipwrecked Gospels.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
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Secret Alias
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

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Not good enough.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Geocalyx
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

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*raises hand* I'd suggest sticking with the Greek version of Thomas when looking for solid prehistorical info. The Coptic version shares its defiant-to-faith agenda with the rest of NHL, who knows what was added to it or altered.

Same goes for the rest of the texts, actually. They purportedly "sing in one voice" - a voice which might be at odds with any texts they were based upon (the Republic comes to mind, might be the same deal with Gospel of Judas and Asclepius and who knows what else).

For example
And concerning this (nature) they hand down an explicit passage, occurring in the Gospel inscribed according to Thomas, expressing themselves thus: He who seeks me, will find me in children from seven years old; for there concealed, I shall in the fourteenth age be made manifest. This, however, is not (the teaching) of Christ, but of Hippocrates, who uses these words: A child of seven years is half of a father. And so it is that these (heretics), placing the originative nature of the universe in causative seed, (and) having ascertained the (aphorism) of Hippocrates, that a child of seven years old is half of a father, say that in fourteen years, according to Thomas, he is manifested
ⲉϫⲛⲉⲟⲩⲕⲟⲩⲉⲓⲛϣⲏⲣⲉϣⲏⲙⲉϥϩⲛⲥⲁϣϥⲛϩⲟⲟⲩⲉⲧⲃⲉⲡⲧⲟⲡⲟⲥⲙⲡⲱⲛϩⲁⲩⲱϥⲛⲁⲱⲛϩ

When the text then says seven days, connection to the above becomes kind of dubious, requiring even larger leaps of faith.

... especially since ϩⲟⲟⲩ is also supposed to mean "wicked" and the translation then talks about a child, experienced in seven sins. Oh my.
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by davidmartin »

Geocalyx wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:29 am *raises hand* I'd suggest sticking with the Greek version of Thomas when looking for solid prehistorical info. The Coptic version shares its defiant-to-faith agenda with the rest of NHL, who knows what was added to it or altered.

Same goes for the rest of the texts, actually. They purportedly "sing in one voice" - a voice which might be at odds with any texts they were based upon (the Republic comes to mind, might be the same deal with Gospel of Judas and Asclepius and who knows what else).
But the Greek versions and the Coptic version agree very well
There's little difference in the surviving Greek passages when compared to the Coptic
That doesn't mean what you say isn't possible, it's just there's no evidence for it when comparing the two versions

Secondly i would say the text in the NHL differ meaningfully from each other and sometimes violently it's an eclectic collection
Have you read the teachings of Silvanus from the NHL? this is very much an orthodox text if this is singing in one voice then they're not singing in harmony with each other. I see your view as not satisfying enquiring minds
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Geocalyx
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Re: James the Just in the gospel of Thomas.

Post by Geocalyx »

davidmartin wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:50 am Have you read the teachings of Silvanus from the NHL? this is very much an orthodox text if this is singing in one voice then they're not singing in harmony with each other. I see your view as not satisfying enquiring minds
silvanus wrote:Abolish every childish time of life, acquire for yourself strength of mind and soul, and intensify the struggle against every folly of the passions of love and base wickedness, and love of praise, and fondness of contention, and tiresome jealousy and wrath, and anger and the desire of avarice. Guard your (pl.) camp and weapons and spears. Arm yourself and all the soldiers, which are the words, and the commanders, which are the counsels, and your mind as a guiding principle.
Yes, the style is very much orthodox, but the text establishes mind and reason as guiding principles.
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