https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6H454-u4yI
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:55 am
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The starting point of my question is the dating probably prevailing among scholars, namely to the years
69/70.
--> What would be a likely late date or a late terminus ad quem? How far would you seriously go?
--> And what are your arguments? (Can you give another argument if your main argument would be the certainty that Mark was written after Marcion or after another „heretic“ of the second century and shows an anti-marcionite view.)
JW:
The starting ending point is Justin Martyr:
JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN
c. 156
As a witness Justin lacks credibility but his references to the Gospel narrative have quantity and quality giving his witness scope. Everyone, including Skeptics, generally assume his source is the Gospels, but if you look at what he wrote it's not that clear. Also keep in mind that we only have what The Christian Church says Justin wrote (another witness lacking credibility).
Let's look through The Apology and see what The Church says Justin said were his sources:
CHAPTER XXXV -- OTHER FULFILLED PROPHECIES.
And how Christ after He was born was to escape the notice of other men until He grew to man's estate, which also came to pass, hear what was foretold regarding this. There are the following predictions:--"Unto us a child is born, and unto us a young man is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders;" which is significant of the power of the cross, for to it, when He was crucified, He applied His shoulders, as shall be more clearly made out in the ensuing discourse. And again the same prophet Isaiah, being inspired by the prophetic Spirit, said, "I have spread out my hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good. They now ask of me judgment, and dare to draw near to God." And again in other words, through another prophet, He says, "They pierced My hands and My feet, and for My vesture they cast lots." And indeed David, the king and prophet, who uttered these things, suffered none of them; but Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him, and denying that He was the Christ. And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat, and said, Judge us. And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.
Half way through the Apology, mostly a philosophical argument but does imply a supporting historical narrative and this is the first identified claimed source.
CHAPTER XLI -- THE CRUCIFIXION PREDICTED.
And again, in another prophecy, the Spirit of prophecy, through the same David, intimated that Christ, after He had been crucified, should reign, and spoke as follows: "Sing to the Lord, all the earth, and day by day declare His salvation. For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols of devils; but God made the heavens. Glory and praise are before His face, strength and glorying are in the habitation of His holiness. Give Glory to the Lord, the Father everlasting. Receive grace, and enter His presence, and worship in His holy courts. Let all the earth fear before His face; let it be established, and not shaken. Let them rejoice among the nations. The Lord hath reigned from the tree."
CHAPTER XLII -- PROPHECY USING THE PAST TENSE.
But when the Spirit of prophecy speaks of things that are about to come to pass as if they had already taken place,--as may be observed even in the passages already cited by me,--that this circumstance may afford no excuse to readers [for misinterpreting them], we will make even this also quite plain. The things which He absolutely knows will take place, He predicts as if already they had taken place. And that the utterances must be thus received, you will perceive, if you give your attention to them. The words cited above, David uttered 1500 years before Christ became a man and was crucified; and no one of those who lived before Him, nor yet of His contemporaries, afforded joy to the Gentiles by being crucified. But our Jesus Christ, being crucified and dead, rose again, and having ascended to heaven, reigned; and by those things which were published in His name among all nations by the apostles, there is joy afforded to those who expect the immortality promised by Him.
Finally mentions "Apostles" but only refers to the supposed crucifixion/resurrection. Sounds more like Paul then the Gospels.
CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.
And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
First and only reference to "Gospels". Strange/bizarre/macabre that the only invocation of the Gospels here is limited to the supposed Eucharist. Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Justin's only specific direct references to Apostles as historical witness are to the supposed crucifixion/resurrection/eucharist (Paul)? Is Justin referring to the Canonical Gospels, Paul, something in between or both? Or, seeing as Justin refuses to name he who shall not be named (PauldeMort), were these added to Justin to merge with Paul (just like Acts, possibly written at a similar time)?
CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
This appears to be the only general reference to the memoirs of the Apostles being a/the source for all/most of the above. Interesting that Justin notes that some Christian assemblies do not read the Gospels, at least not every Sunday. Keep in mind that the most effective place to edit is always at the end. You can create a significant assertion with just one edit.
Summary =
Reasons to think Justin refers to the Canonical Gospels
- 1) References to Gospel stories in quantity and quality.
2) A few references to written memoirs of Apostles.
3) Fits the timeline of Christian identification of the Gospels.
Reasons to think Justin did not refer to the Canonical Gospels
- 1) Justin and the Church are not credible witnesses.
2) The weakness of the Apostles as source claim. The only specific identification of any source is The Acts of Pilate, two specific references to the Apostles as source, the Crucifixion/Resurrection and Eucharist, parallel better with Paul and the only general reference to the Apostles as source is at the end (sure Justin was a dope by modern standards, but to go almost the entire length of the Apology without specifically identifying the main source?).
3) There is no better evidence before Justin that the Gospels existed (always suspect the earliest).
Conclusion = Justin does refer to the Canonical Gospels, they just had not been named at the time. There is a good but speculative reason why GMark had been written long before. Through Papias' time orthodox Christianity knew that GMark was fiction and generally had no reason to be interested since its primary purpose was to discredit the Disciples.
Joseph
Skeptical Textual Criticism