Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:37 pm
Primary focus: what is the difference?
My primary focus was an attempt to identify exactly what the differences were between the Coptic Plato extract and the traditional Greek Plato extract. My secondary focus was attempting to provide an explanation for these differences. So let's start with the primary focus. You provided a PDF of the comparison at this post:
viewtopic.php?p=113888#p113888
The title of this PDF is: Coptic Plato Republic 588a-589b & Gospel of Thomas
In this PDF you
bolded the (small number of) differences. These more or less agree with the same analysis which I had conducted independently, possibly a year or so earlier. Perhaps the best place to start is to list these differences since there's not many.
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2) What exactly are the differences and similarities between the two texts
I think we agree with these. I will summarise them later.
Hi DCH.
I have gone through your above PDF, noted the bolded bits in the Coptic, and compared them to the comments I made in my study of the comparison between the English translation of the Greek and the English translation of the Coptic. If anything comes from this then obviously the Greek and Coptic experts could chime in. But until then here is a summary of what appears to be the differences between the two.
The Section numbers refer to this page:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Plato ... ammadi.htm
Where an asterisk follows the Section Number * this indicates that you have noticed this in your study and have bolded the words.
In the following the bolded text should be from your study.
Section (1) * [588a] - I didn't find a difference here so far
COPTIC: And we will find that he says, 'Good is he who has been done injustice completely. He is glorified justly.' Is not this how he was reproached?"
GREEK: It was, I believe, averred that injustice is profitable to the completely unjust man who is reputed just. Was not that the proposition?”
Section (2) [588c] “What sort of an image?” he said. The monsters of Plato's ancient fables "have now become natural creatures" and were set to work.
COPTIC: these now have become natural creatures - even Chimaera and Cerberus and all the rest that were mentioned. They all came down and they cast off forms and images. And they all became a single image. It was said, 'Work now!'
GREEK: One of those natures that the ancient fables tell of,” said I, “as that of the Chimaera or Scylla or Cerberus, and the numerous other examples that are told of many forms grown together in one.” “Yes, they do tell of them.
Section (3) * Image of the complex beast [588d] - formed now with arrogance
COPTIC: these are formed now with arrogance. And also all the rest that are like them are formed now through the word. For now it is a single image.
GREEK: [588d] “It is the task of a cunning artist,” he said, “but nevertheless, since speech is more plastic than wax and other such media, assume that it has been so fashioned.
Section (4) and Section (5) = Seems to be much the same
Section (6) * He who does injustice [588e]
COPTIC: But what is profitable for him is this: that he cast down every image of the evil beast and trample them along with the images of the lion. (There follows [589a])
GREEK: it profits him to feast and make strong the multifarious beast and the lion and all that pertains to the lion, (There follows [589a])
Section (7) * [589a] The farmers are unable to check the growth of the wild monster on a daily basis. [589a]
COPTIC: The coptic presents a stark and simpler reality. The Coptic describes a farmer who
(1) is striving to take care of the farm on a daily basis, but
(2) is unable to check the growth of the wild monster on a daily basis.
"Then is it not profitable for him who speaks justly?"
"And if he does these things and speaks in them, within the man they take hold firmly.
Therefore especially he strives to take care of them and he nourishes them
just like the farmer nourishes his produce daily. And the wild beasts keep it from growing."
GREEK: Plato describes the perfect farmer in the natural scene who
(1) fosters the growth of cultivated plants, (2) checks the growth of the wild plants,
(3) makes an ally of all the beasts by caring for them, (4) promoting friendship and
(5) fostering growth.
“And on the other hand he who says that justice is the more profitable affirms that all our actions and words should tend to give the man within us [589b] complete domination over the entire man and make him take charge of the many-headed beast - like a farmer who cherishes and trains the cultivated plants but checks the growth of the wild--and he will make an ally of the lion's nature, and caring for all the beasts alike will first make them friendly to one another and to himself, and so foster their growth.
This last one concludes the extract in the NHL.
There seems to be quite a distinctive difference.
A wild monster is loose in the NHL version.
Anyway that's the summary so far concerning possible differences between the Coptic in the NHL and the standard Greek Plato version. It occurs to me that your study had another purpose to do with the Gospel of Thomas whereas my study was just on the Plato extract. So I apologise if I have mistaken your analysis for what it may not be.