in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:06 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:41 pm. But it's not a textual relationship I've investigated.
ok but what do you mean by saying "it's not a textual relationship"? If you assume, as Pinchaud, that Origin of the World is based on the Fourth Gospel, it is a textual relationship. Is not it?
Maybe, --- but I don't think my opinion is worth anything since it is not a question I have seriously studied.
andrewcriddle
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by andrewcriddle »

One argument for a late date of On the Origin of the World is the concept of Adam of Light which as Adamas of Light seems to be a Manichaean idea.

Andrew Criddle
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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe »

Prof Painchaud distinguishes between a "primitive layer" of the book and later layers. It is the former to be allusively based on the Fourth Gospel (according to Painchaud).
davidmartin
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by davidmartin »

On the origin could be Carpocratian and not ascetic
It's interesting to contrast with Concept of Great Power / Authoritative Teaching which are ascetic yet could be Simonian
I think we are seeing in these 2 texts a 100+ year divergence of the gnostic groups, where fragments of more original things can be seen but the outer layer has evolved
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Geocalyx
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Geocalyx »

Geocalix, please don't disturb our discussion. I don't know what are "levels of spirituality", here, but even if I was able to know them, I would be ready to see more "spirituality" in an anti-YHWH text than in a OT text.
While your plea is pressuring me to not respond... discussion does not work that way. Echo chambers do.

So one text presents itself as TRUTH, while the other (which you place on the same level of thinking) cheekily admits to being a retort to a mishmash of info. This is what I call different 'spiritual levels':

"Seeing that everybody, gods of the world and mankind, says that nothing existed prior to chaos, I, in distinction to them, shall demonstrate that they are all mistaken, because they are not acquainted with the origin of chaos, nor with its root. Here is the demonstration."

versus

"In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord delivered Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, along with some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to the temple of his god in Babylonia and put in the treasure house of his god. Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring into the king’s service some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility — young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king’s palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians. The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king’s table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were to enter the king’s service. Among those who were chosen were some from Judah: Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. The chief official gave them new names: to Daniel, the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abednego. But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way. Now God had caused the official to show favor and compassion to Daniel //...//"

I find putting these in the same basked to be like drawing parallels between Lovelock's Gaia to Origin of Species. Or Quo Vadis and Josephus or something.

But carry on, as I said, and see where it gets you.
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Giuseppe
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Re: in the Gnostic tradition the women could make Jesus risen

Post by Giuseppe »

Only extracting that episode from Book of Daniel, totally separated from its original context, you can show it as not claiming "THE TRUTH", differently from Origin of the world.

Try to read entirely the Book of Daniel and the presumed difference evaporates. All the religious texts claim the same degree of "TRUTH", none excluded.

Even so , you are right on a point. Comparing the three texts:
1 Corinthians 2:6-8
Oldest Gospel Passion Story

Then, when the seven rulers came,
they saw hima and were greatly disturbed.

They went up to hima and seized him.a
And [the chief ruler] said to the breath within him,a

"Who are you? And whence did you come hither?"

Ita answered and said, "I have come from 'the force of the man' for the destruction of your work."

When they heard, they glorified him.a

a him = Adam, which Sophie Zoe has just breathed life into = It = not a human

We do, however, speak a message
of wisdom among the mature,
but not the wisdom of this age
or of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.1a

No, we declare God’s wisdom,
a mystery that has been hidden
and that God destined for our glory before time began.1b

None of the rulers of this age understood it,

for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.



So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

“You have said so,” Jesus replied.

[Pilate] had Jesus flogged,b and handed him over to be crucified.

b the flesh was beaten

...the first thought is that a materialization of a myth would be in action. That is the true authentic reason a guy as you can talk in terms of different "degrees of spiritualities" and even be understood.
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