The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tabor

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tabor

Post by MrMacSon »

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... ical-paul/

eg.
There are four different “Pauls” in the New Testament, not one, and each is quite distinct from the others. New Testament scholars today are generally agreed on this point ...

Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:51 pm https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... ical-paul/

eg.
There are four different “Pauls” in the New Testament, not one, and each is quite distinct from the others. New Testament scholars today are generally agreed on this point ...

First he says

As a general working method I have adopted the following three principles:
  • Never accept anything in Acts over Paul’s own account in his seven genuine letters.
  • Cautiously consider Acts if it agrees with Paul and one can detect no obvious biases.
  • Consider the independent data Acts provides of interest but not of interpretive historical use.


I love that emphasised label. Completely new, implausible and unbelievable events? No, just independent data

And then he treats the content of Acts, and concludes:

That Paul’s Hebrew name was Saul we have no reason to doubt, or that he was from Tarsus in Cilicia, though he never mentions this in his letters

And if that weren't enough, he continues with

Whether Paul was born in Tarsus one has to doubt since Jerome, the fourth century Christian writer, knew a different tradition

It remains hilarious how the religiots bend over backwards trying to seem rational yet clutch to every dogmatic straw they can, even if that means contradicting themselves (more than once).
It can't be his age of 74 (yes, the picture is rather flattering) as his The Jesus Dynasty was equally ambivalent
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tabor

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mlinssen wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:46 am
First he says

As a general working method I have adopted the following three principles:
  • Never accept anything in Acts over Paul’s own account in his seven genuine letters.
  • Cautiously consider Acts if it agrees with Paul and one can detect no obvious biases.
  • Consider the independent data Acts provides of interest but not of interpretive historical use.

I love that emphasised label. Completely new, implausible and unbelievable events? No, just independent data

Yep though I emphasis that last point thus -

Consider the independent data Acts provides of interest, but not of interpretive historical use.

I presumed he meant 'data' independent of Paul (see below).

And at least he said

The early Christian writers of the second century ([aka] the 'Apostolic Fathers') mention his name less than a dozen times, holding him up as an example of heroic faith, but nothing of historical interest is related by any of them.


Tabor's article was first published on his blog in November 2012, just over a year after the Westar Institute first reported on their ten year seminar on Acts* (though he doesn't cite it in his article, afaik). They didn't publish their report until November 2013: https://www.westarinstitute.org/store/a ... eginnings/ (available via Kindle for $US10).

* a summary of their findings -

  1. The use of Acts as a source for history has long needed critical reassessment.
  2. Acts was written in the early decades of the second century.
  3. The author of Acts used the letters of Paul as sources.
  4. Except for the letters of Paul, no other historically reliable source can be identified for Acts.
  5. Acts can no longer be considered an independent source for the life and mission of Paul.
  6. Contrary to Acts 1-7, Jerusalem was not the birthplace of Christianity.
  7. Acts constructs its story on the model of epic and related literature.
  8. The author of Acts created names for characters as storytelling devices.
  9. Acts constructs its story to fit ideological goals.
  10. Acts is a primary historical source for second century Christianity.
https://www.westarinstitute.org/project ... -apostles/

Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by mlinssen »


  1. The use of the NT as a source for history has long needed critical reassessment.
  2. the NT was written in the early decades of the second century.
  3. The author of the NT used the "sayings of Jesus" as sources.
  4. Except for the "sayings of Jesus", no other historically reliable source can be identified for the NT.
  5. the NT can no longer be considered an independent source for the life and mission of Jesus.
  6. Contrary to the NT, Jerusalem was not the birthplace of Christianity.
  7. the NT constructs its story on the model of epic and related literature.
  8. The author of the NT created names for characters as storytelling devices.
  9. the NT constructs its story to fit ideological goals.
  10. the NT is a primary historical source for second century Christianity.

Funny, isn't it

10 years? Took me 10 seconds :lol:
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tabor

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:49 am
Funny, isn't it

10 years? Took me 10 seconds :lol:
The ology took a while to sort out ... it took a while to get their Act together ... :P
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
StephenGoranson
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by StephenGoranson »

Maybe you meant to type James Tabor, not Tarbor.
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mlinssen
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by mlinssen »

StephenGoranson wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:28 am Maybe you meant to type James Tabor, not Tarbor.
Not likely. Everyone knows that Tabor is just an anagram for Borat: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat_Sagdiyev
Arbor, arboris - tree. T...ree!
It's the contemporary version of σταυρός. James σταυρός
Bernard Muller
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by Bernard Muller »

1.The use of Acts as a source for history has long needed critical reassessment.
2.Acts was written in the early decades of the second century.
3. The author of Acts used the letters of Paul as sources.
4. Except for the letters of Paul, no other historically reliable source can be identified for Acts.
5. Acts can no longer be considered an independent source for the life and mission of Paul.
6. Contrary to Acts 1-7, Jerusalem was not the birthplace of Christianity.
7. Acts constructs its story on the model of epic and related literature.
8. The author of Acts created names for characters as storytelling devices.
9. Acts constructs its story to fit ideological goals.
10. Acts is a primary historical source for second century Christianity.
These are the conclusions of a group of very biased individuals, anxious to keep pace with some trends.

I addressed the issues in some of my blog posts:
http://historical-jesus.info/58.html The author of 'Acts of the apostles' ("Luke") knew about Josephus' Wars but not his 'Antiquities of the Jews': a smoking gun
Note: Ben does not agree with the smoking gun, but I have many other arguments to prove my point)
http://historical-jesus.info/63.html Dating of 'the Acts of the Apostles'
http://historical-jesus.info/75.html Did the author of 'Acts' knew about Paul's epistles, as the Westar Acts Seminar contends?
http://historical-jesus.info/76.html Arguments against "Luke" knowing Paul's epistles and a late dating of 'Acts'

And I find myself basically agreeing with scholar James Tabor on these comments on pages 229-230 of "Paul and Jesus " (2012), but with some reservations:
"Many historians are agreed that it merits the label, 'Use Sparingly with Extreme Caution.' As a general working method I have adopted the following three principles:
1. Never accept anything in Acts over Paul's own account in his seven genuine letters.
2. Cautiously consider Acts if it agrees with Paul's letters and one can detect no obvious biases.
3. Consider the independent information that Acts provides of interest but not of interpretive historical use."

Cordially, Bernard
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Irish1975
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by Irish1975 »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:09 am These are the conclusions of a group of very biased individuals, anxious to keep pace with some trends.
One thing I love about this website is the security of knowing that no one here is a biased individual 8-)
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Re: The Quest for the Historical Paul, James Tarbor

Post by mlinssen »

Irish1975 wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:15 am
Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 10:09 am These are the conclusions of a group of very biased individuals, anxious to keep pace with some trends.
One thing I love about this website is the security of knowing that no one here is a biased individual 8-)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I for one am also very well known to keep pace with some trends - unlike everyone else in here, who errr, ... errr... well. You know. Right?

Funny how Bernard agrees that fresh information in Acts (found nowhere else) is completely unreliable, yet still doth protest
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