That the "name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua."
I include the wider text for context (from a webpage which I hadn't visited before which is vehemently mythicist so won't provide the url: I was chasing ''ben Stada').
Thanks.
Although modern Christians claim that Christianity only started in the first century C.E., it is clear that the first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in existence for about 150 years. One of the most notorious Notzrim was Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. Talmudic scholars have always maintained that the story of Jesus began with Yeishu.
The Hebrew name for Jesus has always been Yeishu and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been "Yeishu ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern Christianity denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu and moreover, parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical people besides Yeishu.
We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern works that mention him are based on information taken from the Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity, most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to discredit this information and have invented many ingenious arguments to explain it away. Many of their arguments are based on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.
The skimpy information contained in the Baraitas is as follows: Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah once repelled Yeishu with both hands. People believed that Yeishu was a sorcerer and they considered him to be a person who had led the Jews astray. As a result of charges brought against him (the details of which are not known, but which probably involved high treason) Yeishu was stoned and his body hung up on the eve of Passover. Before this he was paraded around for forty days with a herald going in front of him announcing that he would be stoned and calling for people to come forward to plead for him. Nothing was brought forward in his favor however. Yeishu had five disciples: Mattai, Naqai, Neitzer, Buni, and Todah.
In the Tosefta and the Baraitas, Yeishu's father is named Pandeira or Panteiri. These are Hebrew-Aramaic forms of a Greek name. In Hebrew the third consonant of the name is written either with a dalet or a tet. Comparison with other Greek words transliterated into Hebrew shows that the original Greek must have had a delta as its third consonant and so the only possibility for the father's Greek name is Panderos. Since Greek names were common among Jews during Hashmonean times it is not necessary to assume that he was Greek, as some authors have done.
The connection between Yeishu and Jesus is corroborated by the the fact that Mattai and Todah, the names of two of Yeishu's disciples, are the original Hebrew forms of Matthew and Thaddaeus, the names of two of Jesus's disciples in Christian mythology.
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:06 pm
Can someone clarify this?
That the "name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name Yeishua, not Yehoshua."
I include the wider text for context (from a webpage which I hadn't visited before which is vehemently mythicist so won't provide the url: I was chasing ''ben Stada').
Like Stephan, I have no idea what that "i" is doing in the name.
As for the claim, well, it is a little like saying that Gab is short for Gabby, not Gabrielle. In truth, all three are variants of the same name, regardless of how exactly you want to organize them with respect to each other.
It used to be doubted in some quarters whether the man named Yeshu in the Talmud could be, based on the name, the same as Yeshua (= Jesus), but an Israelite inscription has laid that doubt to rest:
Levi Y. Rahmani, Catalogue of Jewish Ossuaries in the Collections of the State of Israel, page 77, ossuary #9:
Yeshu (Hebrew: יֵשׁוּ Yēšū) is the name of an individual or individuals mentioned in rabbinic literature,[1] which historically has been assumed to be a reference to 'Jesus' when used in the Talmud. The name Yeshu is also used in other sources before and after the completion of the Babylonian Talmud. It is also the modern Israeli spelling of Jesus.
... Yeshu the sorcerer is noted for being executed by the Hasmonean government which lost legal authority in 63 BC; Yeshu the student is described being among the Pharisees who returned to Israel from Egypt in 74 BC; and Yeshu ben Pandera/ben Stada's stepfather is noted as speaking with Rabbi Akiva shortly before the rabbi's execution, an event which occurred in c. 134 AD.
Etymology
Bauckham (2008) notes that the spelling Yeshu is found on one ossuary, Rahmani 9, which supports that the name Yeshu was not invented as a way of avoiding pronouncing the name Yeshua or Yehoshua in relation to Jesus, but that it may still be that rabbinical use of Yeshu was intended to distinguish Jesus1 from rabbis bearing the biblical name 'Yehoshua' ["Joshua"]. Foote and Wheeler considered that the name "Yeshu" was simply a shortened form of the name "Yehoshua" [or Joshua].[9]
Another explanation given is that the name "Yeshu" is actually an acronym for the formula ימח שמו וזכרו(נו) (Yimach Shemo V'Zichro[no]), meaning "may his name and memory be obliterated". There are instances in the Talmud where the name "Yeshu" is written with gershayim, a punctuation mark used to indicate acronyms or abbreviations,[10] however, this only occurs in a single tractate [Sanhedrin 107b:12]. The earliest known example of this theory comes from medieval Toledot Yeshu narratives.[12][13] ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu
1 which raises the question, what version of the so-called name of ''Jesus" which did not exist in Antiquity.
Its by no means certain that Yeishu ha-Notzri of the Talmud is the same as Jesus. Yeishu was during the Maccabees period but Jesus was in the Roman/Herodian period. If Yeishu is Jesus then the Jews have corrupted and teleported Jesus into Yeishu of the Maccabees period rather than Jesus being a corruption and teleporting of Yeishu to the Roman period. Jesus was not stoned like Yeishu, though they did try to stone him. Yeishu had 5 disciples but Jesus had 12 and 70/72 and more. Only 1 or 2 of Yeishu's disciples names are sort of similar to 2 of Jesus' disciples names, and neither were among the more prominent of the 12 except that Matthew is associated with the 1st gospel of the NT. The Talmud is written late, and the Jewish sources are surely not reliable considering their anti-Messianist feelings. There is no definite connection of the Notzri(m) movement with the Nazarene(s).
Ben Pandera and Ben Stada are not Jesus. The Jews of Jesus times thought Jesus was the son of Joseph, no Pandera or Stada is mentioned until later. 134 ad is too late for Jesus and is after the earliest NT writings.
The gospels make it clear that Iesous/Jesus is congate with Yehoshua/Joshua/Jeshua "Yah salvation/saves". And the name Yeshua is found in the Torah in the bible skip code.
Yeishu had 5 disciples but Jesus had 12 (and 70/72 and more)
Completely off-topic, but could Mark perhaps have had that in mind when he wote his brain-cracking
17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20“And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”
Yeishu had 5 disciples, the 7 are added, so then they are 12.
Yes, very far-fetched I'll admit, and gobbledegook if you ask me. But this very Markan verse is haunting
mlinssen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:15 am Yeishu had 5 disciples but Jesus had 12 (and 70/72 and more)
Completely off-topic, but could Mark perhaps have had that in mind when he wote his brain-cracking
Mark 8
17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20 “And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21 And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”
Yeishu had 5 disciples, the 7 are added, so then they are 12.
Yes, very far-fetched I'll admit, and gobbledegook if you ask me.* But this very Markan verse is haunting .
* It's interesting what apologetic's webpages can throw up, eg. -
Given the presence of the Syro-Phoenician woman, the number 7 here represents the seven Gentile nations that occupied the Promised Land during the time of Moses (see Deuteronomy 7:1 for the list)
Deuteronomy 7:1
These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the wilderness east of the Jordan—that is, in the Arabah—opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab
The interpretive key or secret here is the preceding story of Christ referring to “bread” being reserved only to the children of Israel (St Mark 7:24-30). The Gentile Syro-Phoenician woman then says, “Yes Lord, but even the dogs under the table eat the crumbs of the children.” Christ loves her answer! He just wanted someone to “get this.” The Apostles did not, but she did.
So this whole business about bread and baskets left over refers to bread for the nation of Israel and then bread for the Gentiles in their midst.
The first number is something God/Christ takes and the result is something yielded from the number. It’s easier if we work backward:
The number 12 almost always refers to the 12 tribes of Israel. It is the national number of the People of God.
The number 7 can refer to the Sabbath (seventh day), holiness, or completion. It’s also the number of the universe since the 7th day brought completion and peace to the creative act of God. The number 70 (7×10=70) is often used by Jews to describe the universal (Catholic) fulness of the Gentiles. Given the presence of the Syro-Phoenician woman, the number 7 here represents the seven Gentile nations that occupied the Promised Land during the time of Moses (see Deuteronomy 7:1 for the list). The Promised Land was occupied by the 12 Tribes of Israel and the competing 7 Nations of the Gentiles
10 The Lord your God has increased your numbers so that today you are as numerous as the stars in the sky. 11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!
