Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by neilgodfrey »

Lucifer Satanel wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:14 am
1) None of the Roman critics of Christianity claimed Jesus was a myth, this includes Tacitus who was very careful about is info and tells us when it is uncertain.
One often hears this assessment of Tacitus from persons who have evidently not read Tacitus for themselves. By comparison with some other ancient historians Tacitus in some respects is "very careful" but that assessment applies more to events of his own time than those of the emperor Tiberius and the setting of the Jesus narrative. But even when discussing events of his own day Tacitus very often appealed to "popular rumours" as if they were "facts" that "no one doubted".

Tacitus wrote as historical fact that a very tall cypress tree fell down but the very next day it rose again and was even taller with a wider expanse of branches than ever before.

Read Tacitus's account of the emperor Tiberius (the time of Jesus) and you will see a narrative that is self-contradictory at so many points it is obvious that much of what he writes simply could not be true. Scholarly assessments have regularly made this point.

There are passages where Tacitus expresses confusion about certain events but if so, he could easily have consulted official records to have got his facts straight -- but evidently did not.

In other passages Tacitus reports as fact events that he says happened in "dead secrecy" -- so how could he possibly know they happened? So Tacitus could write as much like a novelist as other historians sometimes did.

Tacitus gathered much information from reading and rumours but he did so uncritically, as a rule, and very often did not check what he said were facts. There is much fiction in Tacitus posing as fact.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by Charles Wilson »

Pure Flame Throwing:

If Tacitus and Pliny the Younger, for example, contributed to the creation of the NT - See: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2207&hilit=puzzle+empty+tomb - by authoring the Empty Tomb Section, it might be plausible for "Paybacks" to be planted in the Official Documents Library showing that, "Golly Gee Whiz, Tacitus and Pliny both reported Christian Believers all over the place".

Consistency would of little concern since they were both dead by that time. Narrative over all. It should be easy to see at least some of the passages were "newer entries". See also: The arguments over Annals being actually from Tacitus.

"There's something different about Tacitus..."
Could be a movie.
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Irish1975
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by Irish1975 »

Tacitus wrote his Germania, his treatise on the supposedly noble German tribes, without having ventured anywhere near the Rhine. Tragically, it became something of an ur-text for modern white supremacy. See the recent book by Christopher Krebs, and Race & Manifest Destiny by Reginald Horsman.
Lucifer Satanel
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by Lucifer Satanel »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:00 pm
Lucifer Satanel wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:14 am
1) None of the Roman critics of Christianity claimed Jesus was a myth, this includes Tacitus who was very careful about is info and tells us when it is uncertain.
One often hears this assessment of Tacitus from persons who have evidently not read Tacitus for themselves. By comparison with some other ancient historians Tacitus in some respects is "very careful" but that assessment applies more to events of his own time than those of the emperor Tiberius and the setting of the Jesus narrative. But even when discussing events of his own day Tacitus very often appealed to "popular rumours" as if they were "facts" that "no one doubted".

Tacitus wrote as historical fact that a very tall cypress tree fell down but the very next day it rose again and was even taller with a wider expanse of branches than ever before.

Read Tacitus's account of the emperor Tiberius (the time of Jesus) and you will see a narrative that is self-contradictory at so many points it is obvious that much of what he writes simply could not be true. Scholarly assessments have regularly made this point.

There are passages where Tacitus expresses confusion about certain events but if so, he could easily have consulted official records to have got his facts straight -- but evidently did not.

In other passages Tacitus reports as fact events that he says happened in "dead secrecy" -- so how could he possibly know they happened? So Tacitus could write as much like a novelist as other historians sometimes did.

Tacitus gathered much information from reading and rumours but he did so uncritically, as a rule, and very often did not check what he said were facts. There is much fiction in Tacitus posing as fact.
It actually non-Tacitus scholars who usually make claims like your.

https://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php

PS I have read Tacitus more than once
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by neilgodfrey »

Lucifer Satanel wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:54 pm It actually non-Tacitus scholars who usually make claims like your.

https://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php

PS I have read Tacitus more than once
Actually the points I made were all taken from the peer-reviewed publications of Classicist specialists in Roman literature. Bibliography available on request.

I don't think reading Tacitus many times over is the best way to understand Tacitus. We need to read authors in context otherwise how can we know when claims of an author should not necessarily be taken at face value.

Is there any particular paragraph in that linked page you think will overturn anything I said?
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mlinssen
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by mlinssen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:25 pm
Lucifer Satanel wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:54 pm It actually non-Tacitus scholars who usually make claims like your.

https://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php

PS I have read Tacitus more than once
Actually the points I made were all taken from the peer-reviewed publications of Classicist specialists in Roman literature. Bibliography available on request.
I would very much like to have that bibliography. Is this the way to request it?
Lucifer Satanel
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by Lucifer Satanel »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:25 pm
Lucifer Satanel wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:54 pm It actually non-Tacitus scholars who usually make claims like your.

https://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php

PS I have read Tacitus more than once
Actually the points I made were all taken from the peer-reviewed publications of Classicist specialists in Roman literature. Bibliography available on request.

I don't think reading Tacitus many times over is the best way to understand Tacitus. We need to read authors in context otherwise how can we know when claims of an author should not necessarily be taken at face value.

Is there any particular paragraph in that linked page you think will overturn anything I said?
I agreed, but the claim was made that I had not read him. Saying a Roman lawyer who likely prosecuted Christians and had access to all Roman records on them and whose friend Pliny was one of the chief prosecutors of them was ignorant of their religions origins seems a far fetched idea to me.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Evidence Christianity started as mythicist

Post by neilgodfrey »

Lucifer Satanel wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:20 am
Saying a Roman lawyer who likely prosecuted Christians and had access to all Roman records on them and whose friend Pliny was one of the chief prosecutors of them was ignorant of their religions origins seems a far fetched idea to me.
There is no evidence Tacitus ever prosecuted Christians. Such assumptions that he "would have" cannot be considered serious evidence.

Tacitus is known not to have consulted records when he could have and proceeded to write popular rumour instead. If we are appealing to incredulity to establish our points then one does have to ask how plausible it is that Tacitus would bother to consult records on such an insignificant detail when he is clearly reporting what was widely believed about popular rumours etc.

Whether Pliny was ever a prosecutor of Christians has been thrown into doubt by Enrico Tuccinardi. Besides, Pliny's letter says that he has no idea how to handle the case of the Christians so it is doubly unlikely he discussed the religion with Tacitus.

If Tacitus had any knowledge of Christian origins he is more than likely to have received it from common knowledge or reports of what Christians themselves had to say about their origins.

Further, historians (except for theologians calling themselves historians, by and large) do not rely on records that cannot be traced to the time of the events or persons they are witnessing. That is basic methodology 101.

And we have not begun to touch on the severe problems in historical records if that passage by Tacitus is genuine.

So on many levels Tacitus is not a reliable source for what happened in Palestine a full 80 years or more before he wrote.
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