Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:10 pm
hakeem wrote:Your argument is contradictory because you imply that even Christian writers had no reason to mention Paul but then immediately claimed Christian writers mentioned Paul.
Not all Christian writers; only the ones you put in your list: short gMark, Revelation, Acts of the Apostles, Aristides' Apology, the works of Justin Martyr, writings of Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, Municius Felix.
Where do you think short Mark would fit Paul writing letters? Same question for Revelation, and others.
Acts of the Apostles is the exception, but the others do not even mention Paul.
Well, if all those writings I mentioned were really after Paul evangelised the Roman Empire, founded Churches and wrote Epistles then I would expect those supposed later writings to acknowledge Paul as an early evangelist and make references to his teachings and Epistles.
If it was already preached by the supposed Paul, documented in his Epistle and known in the Roman Empire that over 500 persons was seen of the resurrected Jesus then I would expect the author of GMark to make a similar assertion.
The author the short GMark contradicted the Pauline writer and claimed the visitors saw an empty tomb and ran away trembling and terrified saying nothing to anyone.
Even Acts of the Apostles which mentions a character called Paul, and supposedly traveled and preach with him, does not state that over 500 persons was seen of the resurrected Jesus. But even worse, the author of Acts knew nothing about Paul writing letters to anyone anywhere in the Roman Empire and did not quote a single sentence or half a sentence from any of the Epistles.
It is clear to me that no NT author ever saw Paul, saw him preach or read his supposed Epistles.
hakeem wrote:The mention of a character called Paul and that he wrote Epistles does not mean that such a person was Paul the Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin.
Bernard Mueller wrote: So what other Paul would it be?
I will let Ignatius answer you. He knows someone called Paul who wrote to the Ephesians.
Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians.
And ye are, as Paul wrote to you, "one body and one spirit, because ye have also been called in one hope of the faith.
Ephesians 4:4........
one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling
hakeem wrote:Surely you must be aware it is argued that many Christian writers were falsely using the name of Paul.
Bernard Mueller wrote:Certainly, but that does not prevent the real Paul to have written epistles.
Well, if Saul was the real Paul he certainly did not write any Epistles to anyone at any time.
Read Acts of the Apostles.
Saul/Paul wrote nothing.
hakeem wrote:It is argued by many Scholars that Epistles under the name of Paul were forgeries so claiming Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp mention the name Paul may not be evidence at all.
Bernard Mueller wrote:Actually, not so many writers claim(ed) that all Epistles under the name of Paul were forgeries.
Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp do more than mentioning Paul, they say he wrote letter(s).
You have many problems.
The author of Acts who claimed to have traveled, preached and prayed with Saul/Paul did not state anywhere that Saul/Paul wrote letters to anyone or any Church up to c 61-64 CE.
It is the opposite--Saul/Paul received letters and delivered them.
In Acts, Saul/Paul was held in bond at Caesarea awaiting trial in Rome.
Acts 25:14
And when they had been there many days, Festus declared Paul's cause unto the king, saying, There is a certain man left in bonds by Felix
Now, look at the Epistle to the Romans.
The Pauline writer claimed he would go to Rome on his way to Spain.
Romans 15:24
Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you.....
Romans 15:28
When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.
No such claim is found in Acts of the Apostles.
When did the Epistle writer go to Spain?
Who was the real Paul? Was there a real Paul?
So many Pauls in the NT.
hakeem wrote:Christians writer claimed it was the twelve apostles of Jesus who preached the Gospel to the whole world.
Bernard Mueller wrote:That legend started in the 2nd century. Earlier, Acts of the Apostles, have the disciples staying in Jerusalem, and then Paul doing his preaching, not in the whole world, but in a part of the North East of the Roman empire.
The legend that Paul founded Churches started even later.
hakeem wrote: They don't know anything about Paul, his evangelism and his letters.
Bernard Mueller wrote:Just because these writers have the unrealistic claim of the twelve apostles of Jesus preaching the Gospel to the whole world. that does not mean they did not know about Paul.
What you say does not mean they knew Paul.
Bernard Mueller wrote:Let's take Irenaeus: he had Paul having written epistles in Against Heresies, and he knew about Acts, but in Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching 41 [160], we read:
"His disciples, the witnesses of all His good deeds, and of His teachings and His sufferings and death and resurrection, and of His ascension into heaven after His bodily [161] resurrection--these were the apostles, who after (receiving) the power of the Holy Spirit were sent forth by Him into all the world, and wrought the calling of the Gentiles, showing to mankind the way of life, to turn them from idols and fornication and covetousness, cleansing their souls and bodies by the baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit; which Holy Spirit they had received of the Lord, and they distributed and imparted It to them that believed; and thus they ordered and established the Churches"
Cordially, Bernard
Please, don't forget that Irenaeus claimed his Jesus was crucified when he[Jesus] was about to be fifty years old and also stated he [Jesus] was about to be 30 years in the fifteenth year of Tiberius which would mean Irenaus' Jesus was crucified sometime around 48-49 CE.
Surely the supposed Paul in Irenaeus Against Heresies could not have preached Christ crucified since the time of Aretas c 37-41 if he [jesus] was crucified c 48-49 CE.
Who was the Paul in "Against Heresies".
So many Pauls I can't count them.