GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:09 am
In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin uses a quote from the OT to describe the cross. He writes:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... rypho.html
- Yes he does. He appeals to the prophets quite a bit. And, as I said above, he appeals to the form of Moses in Ezekiel 17:10-12
GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:09 am
Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 35
And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture
- I can't find substantial evidence that even the NT authors thought that, "nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet." Can you?
GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:09 am If there are Greek versions of Justin Martyr that used "stauros" ...
- " If " ? -- There is.
GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:09 am ... it would seem to indicate that the writer thought of it in terms of a cross-shape
- I'd like to see a middle premise, perhaps to make a syllogism, at least, to help make that argument.
Cheers. Yes, I've read that. These are the points I've taken from it.GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:09 am
I also found this about the Latin word 'crux' in Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross
The field of etymology is of no help in any effort to trace a supposed original meaning of crux. A crux can be of various shapes: from a single beam used for impaling or suspending (crux simplex) to the various composite kinds of cross (crux compacta) made from more beams than one. The latter shapes include not only the traditional †-shaped cross (the crux immissa), but also the T-shaped cross (the crux commissa or tau cross), which the descriptions in antiquity of the execution cross indicate as the normal form in use at that time, and the X-shaped cross (the crux decussata or saltire).
The Greek equivalent of Latin crux "stake, gibbet" is stauros, found in texts of four centuries or more before the gospels and always in the plural number to indicate a stake or pole. From the first century BC, it is used to indicate an instrument used in executions. The Greek word is used in descriptions in antiquity of the execution cross, which indicate that its normal shape was similar to the Greek letter tau (Τ).
I'd highlight the first paragraph like this -
ie. just the first sentence. I think a lot of the subsequent commentary in that first sentence is non-specific and general. Whether the so-called "traditional †-shaped cross" or the "T-shaped cross (the crux commissa or tau cross)" were the 'normal form' execution cross in use in antiquity or the early first century AD/CE doesn't seem to have any direct bearing on what Justin Martyr or others in antiquity say or describe.
I'd highlight the second paragraph thus -
I am yet to see evidence that, "The Greek word [stauros] is used in descriptions in antiquity of [an] execution cross", or "indicate that [a] normal shape was similar to the Greek letter tau (Τ)"
GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:09 am But whether Justin Martyr used 'stauros' in the Greek or 'crux' in the Latin, he clearly is describing a cross.
- He's not describing a cross, he using metaphors to create an impression -- of a † shaped 'cross'.
It was mostly used to impale. Perhaps people were tied to one. But the shape of someone tied to one would not have created a † shape