"a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifixion"

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MrMacSon
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:12 am
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:28 amYep, fair enough. It'd be interesting to see it in the Greek original ...
Here is the original Latin.
Thanks Ben.

A few 'cricis' and 'cruces'; a 'crucem' (accusative singular of crux); and a 'cruciatibus', chap XXXV (dative or ablative plural of cruciātus (or both))

cruciātus may be
  • a noun;
    1. torture (or the instruments of torture)
    2. torment, suffering
    3. ruin, calamity, misfortune
    4. a crusader [from 13th century]
  • an adjective;
    1. marked by a cross [from 12th century]
  • a participle;
    1. crucified
    2. tortured.

The first line of Octavius chapter XXXV via
  1. https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/minucius.html and
  2. http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/octavius.html

.
"Et tamen admonentur homines doctissimorum libris et carminibus poetarum illius ignei fluminis et de Stygia palude saepius ambientis ardoris, quae cruciatibus aeternis praeparata, et daemonum indiciis et de oraculis prophetarum cognita, tradiderunt."

"And yet men are admonished in the books and poems of the most learned poets of that fiery river, and of the heat flowing in manifold turns from the Stygian marsh,--things which, prepared for eternal torments, and known to them by the information of demons and from the oracles of their prophets, they have delivered to us.
.

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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:46 pmcruciātus may be
...an unforgivable curse in the magical world of Harry Potter?
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by MrMacSon »

For crucem in Octavius chapter XXiX -
.
"Nam quod religioni nostrae hominem noxium et crucem eius adscribitis, longe de vicinia veritatis erratis, qui putatis deum credi aut meruisse noxium aut potuisse terrenum.

For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God.
.

An online translator gives roughly (after amateur reworkings)

"The fact is that the religion of ascribed to our man and his cross is harmful and cross his adscribitis, far from the neighborhood of the truth, the mistakes, who do you think god believe or earned harmful or could have been playing.

or perhaps (same thing(?))

"The fact is that the religion our man and his cross is ascribed as harmful and cross his adscribitis, far from the neighborhood of the truth, the mistakes, who do you think god believe or earned harmful or could have been playing.

Anyway, crucem seems to mean crux ie. cross, though the exact context may be different to what Roberts-Donaldson have said.
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:10 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:46 pmcruciātus may be
...an unforgivable curse in the magical world of Harry Potter?
Aha! A tool of the Dark Arts and one of the three Unforgivable Curses; one of the most powerful and sinister spells known to Wizardkind.

"Voldemort raised his wand, and before Harry could do anything to defend himself, before he could even move, he had been hit again by the Cruciatus curse. The pain was so intense, so all-consuming, that he no longer knew where he was... white-hot knives were piercing every inch of his skin, his head was surely going to burst with pain; he was screaming more loudly than he'd ever screamed in his life — "

Is JK Rowling a descendant of Nero, Domitan, Septimius Severus, or Decius ?
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by hakeem »

The crucifixion story was the single most important teaching for the start of the Jesus cult.

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness

Justin's First Apology XIIL
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar

Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3
Thus the apostles did not change God, but preached to the people that Christ was Jesus the crucified One, whom the same God that had sent the prophets, being God Himself, raised up, and gave in Him salvation to men.

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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by MrMacSon »

hakeem wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:34 pm
The crucifixion story was the single most important teaching for the start of the Jesus cult.

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness

But

... "We preach Christ ἐσταυρωμένον" = estaurōmenon = "having been staked" ...


hakeem wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:34 pm
Justin's First Apology XIII (ie. not XIIL)

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was [asserted to have been] crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar

In Justin the word in Greek is also a derivative of σταυρός / stauros ie. σταυρωθέντα

Further on in First Apol XIII the word is σταυρωθέντι


hakeem wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:34 pm
Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3

Thus the apostles did not change God, but preached to the people that Christ was Jesus the crucified One, whom the same God that had sent [via] the prophets, being God Himself, raised up, and gave in Him salvation to men.

Irenaeus wrote in Greek, and some of his works are extant in Greek, but the more complete ones are in Latin.

I'd say the Greek here would also have a derivative of σταυρός / stauros ie. stake.
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:15 pmIn Justin the word in Greek is also a derivative of σταυρός / stauros ie. stake.
...
Irenaeus wrote in Greek, and some of his works are extant in Greek, but the more complete ones are in Latin.

I'd say the Greek here would also have a derivative of σταυρός / stauros ie. stake.
So, to clarify: are you suggesting that some Christians might have thought that Jesus was nailed to a stake (i.e. a single upright post), rather than to a cross-shaped object?
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:13 pm
mlinssen wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:31 amYou're the greatest, Ben!

Et qui hominem summo supplicio pro facinore punitum et crucis ligna feralia eorum caerimonias fabulatur, congruentia perditis sceleratisque tribuit altaria, ut id colant quod merentur

I think we will find stauros in every single Greek text, and crux in every single Latin one
(I totally agree with you about Ben!) If in fact stauros is used in the Greek texts, then: given the emphasis of the "outstretched hands", etc in the texts, that seems to suggest that in context the word "stauros" might include a cross-shape when it came to capital punishment. I.e. being impaled on a stake included outstretched hands, thus a cross shape, in ancient eyes.
Stauros is in fact the only word used in all of the Greek on the entire NT. It is in the Latin apologies that that very word is translated with crux, and that is the beginning of the crucifiction, and the rest is history

The context you talk about is exactly that - it is context that is not part of the original content and it resides entirely outside of the original tradition of the Koine Greek texts
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:13 pm For crucem in chapter XXiX -
.
"Nam quod religioni nostrae hominem noxium et crucem eius adscribitis, longe de vicinia veritatis erratis, qui putatis deum credi aut meruisse noxium aut potuisse terrenum.

For in that you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross, you wander far from the neighbourhood of the truth, in thinking either that a criminal deserved, or that an earthly being was able, to be believed God.
.

An online translator gives roughly (after amateur reworkings)

"The fact is that the religion of ascribed to our man and his cross is harmful and cross his adscribitis, far from the neighborhood of the truth, the mistakes, who do you think god believe or earned harmful or could have been playing.

or perhaps (same thing(?))

"The fact is that the religion our man and his cross is ascribed as harmful and cross his adscribitis, far from the neighborhood of the truth, the mistakes, who do you think god believe or earned harmful or could have been playing.

Anyway, crucem seems to mean crux ie. cross, though the exact context may be different to what Roberts-Donaldson have said.
"Nam quod religioni nostrae hominem noxium et crucem eius adscribitis, longe de vicinia veritatis erratis, qui putatis deum credi aut meruisse noxium aut potuisse terrenum."

Now, what to-religion of-us man harmful and cross of-his you(PL)-ascribe, far from neighbourhood of-truth you(PL)-err, (you)who think god believed either would-be-deserving harmful or would-have-been-able-to earth

The bold is an interpretation, as "qui" is directed at the person the speaker addresses

I'm unsure about potuisse....
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Re: "a commonplace belief among historians of the early church that early Christianity did not emphasize Jesus’ crucifix

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:57 pm So, to clarify: are you suggesting that some Christians might have thought that Jesus was nailed to a stake (i.e. a single upright post), rather than to a cross-shaped object?
It seems in every case we see 'crucified' or 'cross' in English translations, the Greek word is based on σταυρός ie. stauros = stake.

I'm working through the implications of that. As you know, I'm interested in the commentary of Justin Martyr appealing to the form of Moses in Ezekiel 17:10-12 and to other manifestations of outstretched hands (I also think Isaiah 42:5 might be relevant, too).


mlinssen has, for Justin's First Apology, pointed out in a post upthread, page 2, that the Greek has a derivative of σταυρός and that one Latin version has crucifixum, so it may well be that the change in terminology from stake to crucified actually came with more texts being written in Latin (and the concept of crucifixion has been retrofitted onto the original terminology).


I found, via a link to a Latin version of Octavius which Ben provided, -
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:46 pm A few 'cricis' and 'cruces'; a 'crucem' (accusative singular of crux); and a 'cruciatibus', chap XXXV (dative or ablative plural of cruciātus (or both))

And it seems Martijn and I independently worked out ' cruciatibus ' in Octavius XXXV simply means 'torments', not crucified.



As an aside, though of some comparative Interest, Justin Martyr's First Apol XXXV also has torment/ed, viz. -

And as the prophet spoke, they tormented Him, and set Him on the judgment-seat

but I'm pretty sure the word for 'tormented' in the Greek version is διασύροντες but I can't find a koine Greek -> English translation of it anywhere.*

* the few koine Greek -> English online services I tried didn't work for other words either (maybe I need to sign-up (?)

Nonetheless, διασύροντες doesn't appear to be related to σταυρός.




As for 'nailed', the only references in the NT that refer to nailing or nails which I have found, albeit on a preliminary look, are -

1. Colossians 2:14 ESV

By cancelling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the σταυρῷ - staurō/'cross'.

https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/2-14.htm has "having nailed - προσηλώσας / prosēlōsas - it to the stake/pole " ie. past tense.


2. Luke 23:33 CEV has Jesus nailed to the cross -

When the soldiers came to the place called “The Skull,” they nailed Jesus to a cross. They also nailed the two criminals to crosses, one on each side of Jesus.

but the Greek doesn't, nor the NRSV.


3. John 20:25

So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the τύπον - typon/mark - of the ἥλων - hēlōn/nails - and place my finger into the mark/τύπον of the nails/ἥλων, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”


Which all seems pretty flimsy.

.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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