hakkem wrote:I have already shown you that Tacitus' Annals did not contain the word Christus or Chrestus when Sulpitius Severus quoted the passage in Sacred History 2.29.
The whole passage from Severus did not include any character called Christus and in addition Tacitus in Histories 5.13 admitted the Jews expected their Messianic rulers around c 66 CE. Tacitus also admitted that Vespasian and Titus were really the prophesied Messianic rulers. We know that there was no Jewish Christ in the time of Pilate because 100 years later Simon Barchocheba was considered the Jewish Messiah after defeating the Romans around c 133 CE.Bernard Muller wrote: Severus did not quote the whole passage, just a short abbreviation of it.
hakeem wrote:Jews called many persons Christ [the anointed].
What you say does not alter the fact that Jews called their Kings and High Priest the name of Christ [the anointed]Bernard Muller wrote:I went through that already, Don't you read my posts?
King Saul was called Christ --the anointed in Hebrew Scripture. See 2 Samuel 1.16.
hakeem wrote:Jewish Kings and High Priest were called "Christ" [the anointed]. The Jesus in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 was alive in the time of Albinus.
How many times must I show you that Jesus was made High Priest when Albinus was already appointed Governor?Bernard Mueller wrote:First it is Festus, no Albinus. James was alive then, but that does not mean Jesus was not dead then.
Festus was already dead as stated in the very first line of Antiquities 20.9.1
hakeem wrote:It is documented that there was an High Priest by the name of Jesus in the time of Nero.
Again, there is no mention of Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus the son of Joseph in all the works of Josephus.Bernard Muller wrote: So what. Did that Jesus called Christ?
Also James having Jesus as brother (by then dead) is documented in Galatians.
In addition, there is no claim whatsoever that James in Ant. 20.9.1 was an apostle or follower of a Christian cult.
There is also no reference to any letter by Paul to the Galatians in all the writings of Josephus.
Josephus also admitted that the Jews expected their Messianic ruler c 66 CE and corroborated by Suetonius and Tacitus.
hakeem wrote: If Josephus did not want to write about NT Jesus then he did not in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.
You are merely repeating the same contradiction.. It does not make sense for Josephus to write nothing about the supposed prophesied Messianic ruler of whom there was supposed to be many books, letters and thousands of followers and then write about an unknown James which is not mentioned even in the Gospels and Acts.Bernard Mueller wrote:How many times I have to tell you that Jesus called Christ in Ant. 20.9.1 is only to identify James.
In fact, there is no apostle called James who was the brother of NT Jesus in virtually all apologetic writings.
hakeem wrote:Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 does not say Jesus called Christ was dead.
Josephus wrote nothing about NT Paul, nothing of his supposed letters, and nothing of Christians in c 50 CE.Bernard Mueller wrote:Josephus did not have to specify that. When Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians in 50 CE, he said Jesus was dead (4:14, 5:10).
Jesus was an High Priest c 63 CE so he could not be dead in the time of Pilate.c 27-37 CE.
By the way, in the Epistles the Pauline Jesus was alive. Over 500 persons, including Paul saw him..
1 Corinthians 15:8
hakeem wrote:It states that Jesus was made High Priest by Albinus.
Jesus the High Priest c 63 CE was not the son of Joseph or the brother of an apostle.Bernard Mueller wrote: That's another Jesus altogether.
hakeem wrote:I am extremely happy that you mention Germanicus in Ant. XX ch.8 and that he was already dead in the time of Albinus.
But, you forgot to tell me that it was Josephus who stated Gemanicus was dead in the very same Antiquities 18.2.5…
Your assumptions are baseless that Jesus in Antiquities 20.9.1 was already dead in the time of Albinus.Bernard Mueller wrote: So what do you draw from that?
hakeem wrote:It is documented that Jews called their High Priest by the title of Christ.
Eusebius Church History 1.3.7….
Again, it is a fact that Jews called their Kings and High Priests by the name of Christ since there were actually and physically anointed with oil in Jewish tradition.Bernard Mueller wrote: But did Josephus write that Jesus, son of Damneus, was called Christ?
Josephus wrote nothing about a Jesus of Nazareth or son of Joseph who was a King or High Priest of the Jews.
hakeem wrote:You forgot to mention the very next passage.
Justin writings admit there were people called Christians who did not believe the stories of Jesus and that there were people who claimed to be Christ.Bernard Mueller wrote: Justin related to passages (out of context) from the gospels to say Jesus warned against 2nd century Christian "heretics", such as Marcion.
hakeem wrote:Why do you expect Josephus and Tacitus to write about Christ when they were not even Christians?
You keep repeating the same nonsense that Josephus did not write about Jesus but he wrote about James of whom no Christian writer identified as an apostle and actual brother of .NT Jesus.Bernard Mueller wrote:Why writers wrote about Trump even if they are not among his followers?
Again, Josephus wrote "Jesus called Christ" to identify James. That's it.
Tacitus wrote about Christian/Chrestian and Christus as part of his description of the great fire in Rome and Nero's reaction to it.
Both Josephus and Tacitus did not have to be Christian to write that.
hakeem wrote:I expected Christians to write that Tacitus mentioned their Christ in their Sacred History but they could not. There was none.
Bernard Muller wrote: Tacitus mentioned that the Christians' beliefs were: most mischievous superstition ... the first source of the evil ... where all things hideous and shameful
The problem is that the very word “ChEstians” in Tacitus Annals was confirmed to have been manipulated --altered to appear as the word “ChrIstians”.Bernard Muller wrote:Nothing sacred to be told.
Again and again I explained that Severus did not quote the whole of Tacitus' passage, only a short abbreviation of it.[/quote]hakeem wrote:I have already shown you that Tacitus' Annals did not contain the word Christus or Chrestus when Sulpitius Severus quoted the passage in Sacred History 2.29.
What you say does not alter the fact that Severus does not corroborate that Tacitus wrote about Christus.
The Severus passage about Nero starts before and ends after the phrase about “Christus” which shows that there was no mention of a character called Christus by Tacitus in the time of Severus.
The addition of “Christus” in Tacitus Annals 15.44 occurred sometime after the writings of Severus’ Sacred History.
hakeem wrote:Christian writers stated that there were thousands of Jews who believed Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah
What? In Acts of the Apostles in two days alone there were 8000 converts. And there were also thousands of Jews converted by Paul..Bernard Muller wrote: Very likely an exageration. Anyway three thousands is rather small compared with about 60,000 to 80,000 living in Jerusalem then.
hakeem wrote:And even worse Tertullian, referring to the Histories of Cornelius Tacitus does not use Annals to argue against Marcion to prove his Christ was a figure of history and not a phantom.
Bernard Mueller wrote: Marcion did not describe the earthly Jesus as a phantom in his gospel. Just that Jesus came to earth differently that normal human. And he was crucified.......
Christian writers did claim Marcion’s Son of God was a phantom.
Tertullian Against Marcin 3.8
Tertullian’s Against Marcion 5.8
Tacitus' Annals did not mention Christus as shown in Severus Sacred History and did not mention Christians as confirmed by ultra-violet light.Bernard Mueller wrote:Tacitus had nothing which would indicate Christus came to earth without being birthed by a woman.
Not even Christians writers used Tacitus Annals to prove Jesus was a figure of history. Ignatius, Clement, Aristides, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Theophilus, Athenagors, Tertullian, Origen, Eusebius, Severus, --not one of them used Tacitus' Annals to prove Jesus did exist.