dating the birth stories?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3928
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Cora,
Hi B, I do not do Barnabas because I do not now who that is supposed to be, but the text is from after 200.
The epistle of Barnabas is dated before 120 CE.
Chrestos means in connection with a god, saviour. So Paul was talking about a saviour, and Isu was a god. Changed in Jesus, Jesus was a god in the universe.
Well, Paul explained why Jesus was/is a Savior and it was not because being a god in the universe.
Romans 3:23-25, ESV: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."

Romans 5:8 ESV: "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Does a divine spirit in the universe have a brother in Jerusalem??????
But Paul wrote Jesus had been an earthly human being. So having a brother in Jerusalem makes sense but not if he is a divine spirit in the universe.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem »

Charles Wilson wrote:.......After a lengthy analysis, Raskin lays the interpolation at the feet of Eusebius and concludes:

"We may construct the original sentence as, "Punishment was inflicted on the Jews, a class of men given to an old and mischievous superstition."

[Note: The italicized part of the sentence just above is produced in a different font in the book, as part of Raskin's overall analysis.]
The re-constructed passage seems to be in agreement with Tacitus' Histories 5.13 where the author also makes mention of Jews being "prone to superstition" in reference to the coming of the Jewish prophesied Messianic ruler during the very same reign of Nero.

Tacitus' Histories" 5.13
Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judæa, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.

cora
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:57 pm

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by cora »

B, stop quoting forgeries. Barnabas has catholic text and therefore is from after 200 (when the canon was opened).
You still have not looked up what Gnosticism is. Most scholars say that it happens in the celestial skies, even without knowing Gnosticism.
Stop quoting romans, which is the most forged letter (by Irenaeus). Paul is not about sinners, that is Irenaeus. Christ died for us is by Irenaeus.
Paul did not write that Jesus had been a human being, that is what Irenaeus says. Stop turning things around because of what Irenaeus put in.
You cannot discern between what is real and what is catholic forgery by Irenaeus. Not many people can. But at least there is widespread doubt. So swallowing the whole as by Paul, is fundamental Christian (which you say you are not). You don't recognize what Paul is preaching, which is gnostic.
The father, the son and the holy spirit are gnostic. The son who was there from the beginning is the Logos (gnostic). And not the later invented pre-existence of Jesus (by the catholics). Pre-existence of a human? Get a grip. Paul is preaching a gnostic mystery religion, and it is about a god/divine spirit. The brother of the Lord is a forgery by Irenaeus, which makes us believe that there was a human Jesus, and that Paul lived in 35.
As long as you have no idea about other religions of the time and neighbourhood, writing is useless. Thinking the NT is all there is is stupid.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 1946
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Barnabas is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and hence must date from well before 200 CE.

Andrew Criddle
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:52 am Barnabas is quoted by Clement of Alexandria and hence must date from well before 200 CE.

Andrew Criddle
What you say is not necessarily true. The mention of the supposed Barnabas in writings attributed to Clement only shows that the writing attributed to Barnabas is known to Clement. One cannot assume writings attributed to Barnabas are authentic simply because they are mentioned by a Christian.
User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by arnoldo »

The Emperor Julian also mentions the supposed Gospels.
How then has it been handed down in the Gospels that Jesus commanded : "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," if they were not intended to serve him also?
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/julia ... 1_text.htm

hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: The epistle of Barnabas is dated before 120 CE.
Which manuscript of Barnabas is dated before c 120? The King James version?
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3928
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
Which manuscript of Barnabas is dated before c 120? The King James version?
The King James version or any other bibles do not deal with the epistle of Barnabas because it is not canonical.
For dating, you can consult http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/barnabas.html which put the epistle written between 80 & 120.
I also explored the dating of the epistle and found out it was likely written during the short reign of Nerva (18 September 96 –; 28 January 98). See http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html#barnabas

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
Posts: 663
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:20 am

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:23 am to hakeem,
Which manuscript of Barnabas is dated before c 120? The King James version?
The King James version or any other bibles do not deal with the epistle of Barnabas because it is not canonical.
For dating, you can consult http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/barnabas.html which put the epistle written between 80 & 120.
I also explored the dating of the epistle and found out it was likely written during the short reign of Nerva (18 September 96 –; 28 January 98). See http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html#barnabas

Cordially, Bernard
The dates of writings at the site you provided are just opinion-not actual dating of manuscripts. No early manuscripts of the Barnabas Epistle have been found.
robert j
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by robert j »

hakeem wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:23 am
Which manuscript of Barnabas is dated before c 120? The King James version?
We all shoot ourselves in the foot occasionally. And sometimes it can be quite revealing.
Post Reply