The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

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mlinssen
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The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by mlinssen »

Thomas logion 109, 76 and 8. Greek loanwords are capitalised (and the translation can be found at the usual place, https://www.academia.edu/42110001)

Assuming that the direction of dependence is from Matthew to Thomas, here is the story of that. Berean Literal, naturally, which shows how, errr, concise the verses of Matthew are. The [men] isn't even in there so I put it in between brackets

Matthew 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, [men] drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad

Thomas logion 109, 76, 8

109 said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king she/r liken to a human has he therein in his(F) field a treasure he been-hidden he been-made without know as-regards him
and after to-cause his death did he place him within his child
would the child know not did he carry the(F) field which therein
did he give her outward and he-who have bought her did he come he plough did he fall to the treasure did he Begin of give copper to the(F) interest to they-who he desire them

76 said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king of the father she likens to a human trader has he therein a Consignment did he fall to a Pearl
the trader who therein a wise-person is/are did he give-away his Consignment did he buy to him that-one Pearl alone
yourselves likewise you seek-after his treasure not-usually he perish in-case he continuing outward the place not-usually moth make-to-approach inward to the-place-there to eat Nor not-usually he worm destroy

8 and said he : the human liken to a fisher become-man of heart/mind
this have cast his(F) dragnet to Sea
did he draw her upward in Sea she filled of fish little within upper-part of heart/mind their
did he fall to a great fish good
viz. the fisher become-man of heart/mind did he cast the(PL) little all them the(PL) fish outward downward to Sea
did he choose the great fish Exempt-from toil
he-who there-be ear within he to hear let! he hear

The parable of the net is the core parable of Thomas, where he demonstrates that There Is No Big Fish: https://www.academia.edu/43780115/The_P ... ng_to_find

It contains a main metamorphosis, which consists of two sub metamorphoses:

1) And he says: the human likens to a fisher, become-man of heart/mind, who had cast his dragnet to sea.
2) He drew her upward in sea, filled of fish, little within upper-part of their heart/mind.
3) He fell to a great fish.
4) Good, the fisher become-man of heart/mind, he cast the little fish, all of them, outward, downward to sea.
5) He chose the great fish, exempt-from toil.
0) He-who has ears within him to hear, let! him hear

(A1) And he says: the human likens to a fisher, become-man of heart/mind,
(A2) who had cast his dragnet to sea.
(A3) He drew her upward in sea,
(A4) filled of fish, little within upper-part of their heart/mind.
(A5-B1) He fell to a great fish.
(B2) Good, the fisher become-man of heart/mind,
(B3) he cast the little fish, all of them, outward, downward to sea.
(B4) He chose the great fish
(B5) exempt-from toil.

The metamorphosis model is present in most of Thomas, yet in each of his 16 parables. It shows a metamorphosis from a Starting state (2) to a Transition state (4), facilitated by an Action catalyst (3).
The states always are in stark contrast, sometimes even opposite to one another: the drawing upward that results in a net full of fish changes into throwing down that results in a net devoid of fish, for example.
The focus of every model is not on the metamorphosis itself but on its result: change leads to change, and it is always the metamorphosis outcome (5) that matters most. That is a spin-off of the Transition state, and it is the very goal of the model: to give directions on getting there

Now. What are the chances that Thomas created his version based on that of Matthew?

It can be argued that Matthew is more original because his is the least elaborate, which in itself is a valid argument.
But does shorter always mean more original? Conclusions and summaries are always shorter than their source, and what Matthew has here does very much look like a summary indeed

Three in a row, quick and short and non descript they are. What is their overarching theme, their connection, and why don't they get applied, used, what is the purpose of their presence?
gryan
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by gryan »

My vote goes to GMatthew's shorter sayings of the master as the more likely original koans, and GThomas as a student's demonstration of an enlightened understanding.

That is, by the way, a living wisdom tradition, as I can attest. One of my meditation teachers, Laurence Freeman OSB, gave the GMatthew version of The Hidden Treasure to me as a koan:
https://wccm.org/about/our-teachers/

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by mlinssen »

gryan wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:08 am My vote goes to GMatthew's shorter sayings of the master as the more likely original koans, and GThomas as a student's demonstration of an enlightened understanding.

That is, by the way, a living wisdom tradition, as I can attest. One of my meditation teachers, Laurence Freeman OSB, gave the GMatthew version of The Hidden Treasure to me as a koan:
https://wccm.org/about/our-teachers/

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
Naturally, in this case, your vote would go there, I assume, given your theological outlook.
But given the other 69 instances in the canonicals where Thomas and they share material, with Thomas being shorter in the vast majority of cases?

It is a remarkably dishonest verse in Matthew's version, by the way - that, on a side note
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:08 am My vote goes to GMatthew's shorter sayings of the master as the more likely original koans,1 and GThomas as a student's demonstration of an enlightened understanding.

That is, by the way, a living wisdom tradition, as I can attest. One of my meditation teachers, Laurence Freeman OSB, gave the GMatthew version of The Hidden Treasure to me as a koan1: https://wccm.org./about/our-teachers/

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
1 koan:
  1. a paradoxical anecdote or riddle without a solution (used in Zen Buddhism) to demonstrate the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke enlightenment
  2. a story, dialogue, question, or statement which is used (in Zen practice) to provoke the "great doubt" and to practice or test a student's progress in Zen.
  3. a paradox to be meditated upon that is used (to train Zen Buddhist monks) to abandon ultimate dependence on reason and to force them into gaining sudden intuitive enlightenment https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/koan
  4. (in Zen Buddhism of Japan) a succinct paradoxical statement or question used as a meditation discipline for novices (particularly in the Rinzai sect). The effort to “solve” a koan is intended to exhaust the analytic intellect and the egoistic will, readying the mind to entertain an appropriate response on the intuitive level. Each such exercise constitutes both a communication of (some aspect of Zen) experience and a test of the novice’s competence. https://www.britannica.com/topic/koan

.
Literary practice

Koan practice developed from a literary practice, styling snippets of encounter-dialogue into well-edited stories. It arose in interaction with "educated literati". There were dangers involved in such a literary approach, such as ascribing specific meanings to the cases ...

The style of writing of Zen texts has been influenced by "a variety of east Asian literary games":[12]
  1. The extensive use of allusions, which create a feeling of disconnection with the main theme;
  2. Indirect references, such as titling a poem with one topic and composing a verse that seems on the surface to be totally unrelated;
  3. Inventive wordplay based on the fact that Hanzi (Chinese characters) are homophonic and convey multiple, often complementary or contradictory meanings;
  4. Linking the verses in a sustained string based on hidden points of connection or continuity, such as seasonal imagery or references to myths and legends
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koan#Literary_practice

Last edited by MrMacSon on Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by mlinssen »

mlinssen wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:50 am Thomas logion 109, 76 and 8. Greek loanwords are capitalised (and the translation can be found at the usual place, https://www.academia.edu/42110001)

Assuming that the direction of dependence is from Matthew to Thomas, here is the story of that. Berean Literal, naturally, which shows how, errr, concise the verses of Matthew are. The [men] isn't even in there so I put it in between brackets

Matthew 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, [men] drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad

Thomas logion 109, 76, 8

109 said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king she/r liken to a human has he therein in his(F) field a treasure he been-hidden he been-made without know as-regards him
and after to-cause his death did he place him within his child
would the child know not did he carry the(F) field which therein
did he give her outward and he-who have bought her did he come he plough did he fall to the treasure did he Begin of give copper to the(F) interest to they-who he desire them

76 said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king of the father she likens to a human trader has he therein a Consignment did he fall to a Pearl
the trader who therein a wise-person is/are did he give-away his Consignment did he buy to him that-one Pearl alone
yourselves likewise you seek-after his treasure not-usually he perish in-case he continuing outward the place not-usually moth make-to-approach inward to the-place-there to eat Nor not-usually he worm destroy

8 and said he : the human liken to a fisher become-man of heart/mind
this have cast his(F) dragnet to Sea
did he draw her upward in Sea she filled of fish little within upper-part of heart/mind their
did he fall to a great fish good
viz. the fisher become-man of heart/mind did he cast the(PL) little all them the(PL) fish outward downward to Sea
did he choose the great fish Exempt-from toil
he-who there-be ear within he to hear let! he hear

The parable of the net is the core parable of Thomas, where he demonstrates that There Is No Big Fish: https://www.academia.edu/43780115/The_P ... ng_to_find

It contains a main metamorphosis, which consists of two sub metamorphoses:

1) And he says: the human likens to a fisher, become-man of heart/mind, who had cast his dragnet to sea.
2) He drew her upward in sea, filled of fish, little within upper-part of their heart/mind.
3) He fell to a great fish.
4) Good, the fisher become-man of heart/mind, he cast the little fish, all of them, outward, downward to sea.
5) He chose the great fish, exempt-from toil.
0) He-who has ears within him to hear, let! him hear

(A1) And he says: the human likens to a fisher, become-man of heart/mind,
(A2) who had cast his dragnet to sea.
(A3) He drew her upward in sea,
(A4) filled of fish, little within upper-part of their heart/mind.
(A5-B1) He fell to a great fish.
(B2) Good, the fisher become-man of heart/mind,
(B3) he cast the little fish, all of them, outward, downward to sea.
(B4) He chose the great fish
(B5) exempt-from toil.

The metamorphosis model is present in most of Thomas, yet in each of his 16 parables. It shows a metamorphosis from a Starting state (2) to a Transition state (4), facilitated by an Action catalyst (3).
The states always are in stark contrast, sometimes even opposite to one another: the drawing upward that results in a net full of fish changes into throwing down that results in a net devoid of fish, for example.
The focus of every model is not on the metamorphosis itself but on its result: change leads to change, and it is always the metamorphosis outcome (5) that matters most. That is a spin-off of the Transition state, and it is the very goal of the model: to give directions on getting there

Now. What are the chances that Thomas created his version based on that of Matthew?

It can be argued that Matthew is more original because his is the least elaborate, which in itself is a valid argument.
But does shorter always mean more original? Conclusions and summaries are always shorter than their source, and what Matthew has here does very much look like a summary indeed

Three in a row, quick and short and non descript they are. What is their overarching theme, their connection, and why don't they get applied, used, what is the purpose of their presence?
A concise version of this would benefit from a real translation of Matthew, for those of you with little knowledge of Greek:

44 Ὁμοία (Like) ἐστὶν (is) ἡ (the) βασιλεία (kingdom) τῶν (of the) οὐρανῶν (heavens) θησαυρῷ (to-treasure) κεκρυμμένῳ (having been hidden) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ἀγρῷ (field), ὃν (which), εὑρὼν (having found), ἄνθρωπος (a man) ἔκρυψεν (hid), καὶ (and) ἀπὸ (for) τῆς (the) χαρᾶς (joy) αὐτοῦ (of it) ὑπάγει (goes) καὶ (and) πωλεῖ (he sells) ‹πάντα› (all) ὅσα (that) ἔχει (he has) καὶ (and) ἀγοράζει (buys) τὸν (the) ἀγρὸν (field) ἐκεῖνον (that).

45 Πάλιν (Again) ὁμοία (like) ἐστὶν (is) ἡ (the) βασιλεία (kingdom) τῶν (of the) οὐρανῶν (heavens) ‹ἀνθρώπῳ› (a man), ἐμπόρῳ (a merchant) ζητοῦντι (seeking) καλοὺς (fine) μαργαρίτας (pearls);

46 εὑρὼν (having found) δὲ (now) ἕνα (one) πολύτιμον (very precious) μαργαρίτην (pearl), ἀπελθὼν (having gone away), πέπρακεν (he has sold) πάντα (all things) ὅσα (as many as) εἶχεν (he had), καὶ (and) ἠγόρασεν (bought) αὐτόν (it).

47 Πάλιν (Again) ὁμοία (like) ἐστὶν (is) ἡ (the) βασιλεία (kingdom) τῶν (of the) οὐρανῶν (heavens) σαγήνῃ (a dragnet) βληθείσῃ (having been cast) εἰς (into) τὴν (the) θάλασσαν (sea), καὶ (and) ἐκ (of) παντὸς (every) γένους (kind) συναγαγούσῃ (having gathered together),

48 ἣν (which), ὅτε (when) ἐπληρώθη (it was filled), ἀναβιβάσαντες (having drawn up) ἐπὶ (on) τὸν (the) αἰγιαλὸν (shore) καὶ (and) καθίσαντες (having sat down), συνέλεξαν (they collected) τὰ (the) καλὰ (good) εἰς (into) ἄγγη (vessels), τὰ (the) δὲ (and) σαπρὰ (bad) ἔξω (out) ἔβαλον (they cast).

Logion 109, 76, 8: and for those among you who want to argue that shorter equals more original, please do consult the parable of the sower, the tenants in the vineyard, the mustard seed, the seed and the weeds, the rich man, among others.
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by schillingklaus »

The Matthean sayings are Judaizations and degradations of gnostic pre-Christian dogmatics. Apologists like Gryan fail to understand that.
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by mlinssen »

schillingklaus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:45 pm The Matthean sayings are Judaizations and degradations of gnostic pre-Christian dogmatics. Apologists like Gryan fail to understand that.
Now that I almost entirely agree with; "gnostic pre-Christian" is an ugly label for Chrestian, however, and the word dogmatics is completely out of place

The Matthean sayings are Judaizations and degradations of Chrestian ones - how about that?

Yes, Matthew is the most revolting Judaiser of them all, and his occasional presence in Luke is abundantly evident
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MrMacSon
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by MrMacSon »

schillingklaus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:45 pm The Matthean sayings are Judaizations and degradations of gnostic pre-Christian dogmatics.
  • Maybe " 'gnostic'-Christian " ??

    (dunno about 'Chrestian' as not many people would know Martijn's application {perhaps too 'double-Dutch' :P })
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:45 pm
schillingklaus wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:45 pm The Matthean sayings are Judaizations and degradations of gnostic pre-Christian dogmatics.
  • Maybe " 'gnostic'-Christian " ??

    (dunno about 'Chrestian' as not many people would know Martijn's application {perhaps too 'double-Dutch' :P })
It's not my application Mac; Philip abundantly attests to it, and so do Vaticanus, Bezae, Sinaiticus, and likely all other MSS, as well as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, as well as Tacitus and Suetonius

It is everywhere, in writing. Haven't you read Philip speaks from the grave
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Re: The peculiar case of the treasure, pearl and net

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:19 am It's not my application Mac; Philip abundantly attests to it, and so do Vaticanus, Bezae, Sinaiticus, and likely all other MSS, as well as Justin Martyr, Tertullian, as well as Tacitus and Suetonius
Yes, I know there's lots of attestation to Chrestianity. But does that apply to both non-orthodox early Chrestianity and proto-orthodoxy-and-early-orthodoxy? or just one: to (i) non-orthodox early Chrestianity or (ii) to orthodoxy?
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:19 am It is everywhere, in writing. Haven't you read Philip speaks from the grave
Yes, I have. G.Philip is said to be Valentinian or align with Valentinian theology and is dated to the 2nd or 3rd centuries AD/CE.
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