dating the gospels?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: I think your ship (gospels written around 150, Paul's epistles written around 175) has more holes in its hull and should be sunk by now.

Cordially, Bernard
Aristides' Apology supposedly written in the time of Hadrian 117-138 CE mentions stories of Jesus in "the Gospel".

Aristides' Apology"
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called

gMatthew and gLuke do not state that "God came down from heaven" so there seem to have been some other Gospel known to Aristides. Even Justin Martyr writing in the time of Antoninus c 138-161 CE claimed he got his story of Jesus from the Memoirs of the Apostles.

Justin's First Apology"
For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;"

Justin First Apology is evidence that the Memoirs of the Apostles predate Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

It would appear that stories of Jesus in the "Memoirs of the Apostles" called Gospels were falsely attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John sometime after the writings of Justin Martyr or at least after c 138-161 CE.

In other words, Basilides and Cerinthus could not have use Gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke or John because there were no Gospels under those names up the time of Justin c 150 CE.
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
Aristides' Apology supposedly written in the time of Hadrian 117-138 CE mentions stories of Jesus in "the Gospel".
Aristides' Apology"
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called

What Aristides called gospel is obviously a combination of the NT gospels: God came down from heaven is from gJohn and the virgin from gLuke or/and gMatthew.

Justin's First Apology"
For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called gospels,
It is most obvious here that the memoirs are the gospels.
It would appear that stories of Jesus in the "Memoirs of the Apostles" called Gospels were falsely attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John sometime after the writings of Justin Martyr or at least after c 138-161 CE.
Justin did not attribute the gospels to anyone.
In other words, Basilides and Cerinthus could not have use Gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke or John because there were no Gospels under those names up the time of Justin c 150 CE.
Each gospel did not need to be attributed to an author in order to be used.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:Aristides' Apology supposedly written in the time of Hadrian 117-138 CE mentions stories of Jesus in "the Gospel".
Aristides' Apology"
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called

Bernard Muller wrote:What Aristides called gospel is obviously a combination of the NT gospels: God came down from heaven is from gJohn and the virgin from gLuke or/and gMatthew.
What you say does not make sense. gMatthew and gLuke claim Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin and gJohn claims Jesus was the Logos. It must also be noted that Aristides wrote "the Gospel [singular].
hakeem wrote:Justin's First Apology"
For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called gospels,
Bernard Muller wrote: It is most obvious here that the memoirs are the gospels.
Justin referred to the Memoirs of the Apostles as Gospels. He obviously did not call them the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

We know that the Memoirs were not the same as Matthew, Mark , Luke and John because there are events in the Memoirs that are not found in NT Gospels.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho
But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village..

Origen corroborates that there was a cave story in the Gospel which is unknown in NT Gospels.

Origen's Against Celsus 1.51
....in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born...

hakeem wrote:It would appear that stories of Jesus in the "Memoirs of the Apostles" called Gospels were falsely attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John sometime after the writings of Justin Martyr or at least after c 138-161 CE.
Bernard wrote:Justin did not attribute the gospels to anyone.
Precisely, it was after Justin, after at least c 150 CE, that Gospels were falsely attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John
hakeem wrote:In other words, Basilides and Cerinthus could not have use Gospels according to Mathew, Mark, Luke or John because there were no Gospels under those names up the time of Justin c 150 CE.
Bernard Muller wrote: Each gospel did not need to be attributed to an author in order to be used.
Again, we know that Justin Memoirs of the Apostles was not gMatthew , gMark, gLuke or gJohn because it contains a cave birth story.

It was after Justin, after c 150 CE that we first hear of gMatthew, gMark, gLuke and gJohn in "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus c 178 CE.
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Re: dating the gospels?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
What you say does not make sense. gMatthew and gLuke claim Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin and gJohn claims Jesus was the Logos.
Aristides did not specify by whom Mary got inseminated. So your comment is irrelevant. And Jesus can be considered the Messiah and the logos at the same time. Jesus is Christ at Jn 1:17 and Jn 1:41 has "We have found the Messiah (which is means Christ)."
Justin referred to the Memoirs of the Apostles as Gospels. He obviously did not call them the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Of course, each NT gospels were not attributed an author yet. But many of Justin's quotes come from these NT gospels. That would identify the gospels of Justin.
We know that the Memoirs were not the same as Matthew, Mark , Luke and John because there are events in the Memoirs that are not found in NT Gospels.
The cave does not come from the NT writings, but because early Christian pilgrims somehow took a cave in Bethlehem for the location of where the family stayed after Jesus' birth (Luke's version).

Cordially, Bernard
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:49 amThe cave does not come from the NT writings, but because early Christian pilgrims somehow took a cave in Bethlehem for the location of where the family stayed after Jesus' birth (Luke's version).
I suspect the cave comes from Isaiah 33.16 OG. Justin Martyr makes the connection explicit:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue 78.1-11: 1 “Now this king Herod, at the time when the Magi came to him from Arabia and said they knew from a star which appeared in the heavens that a King had been born in your country, and that they had come to worship Him, learned from the elders of your people that it was thus written regarding Bethlehem in the prophet, ‘And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the princes of Judah; for out of you shall go forth the leader who shall feed my people’ (= Micah 5.2). 2 Accordingly the Magi from Arabia came to Bethlehem and worshiped the Child, and presented Him with gifts, gold and frankincense, and myrrh; but returned not to Herod, being warned in a revelation after worshipping the Child in Bethlehem. 3 And Joseph, the spouse of Mary, who wished at first to put away his betrothed Mary, supposing her to be pregnant by intercourse with a man, that is, from fornication, was commanded in a vision not to put away his wife; and the angel who appeared to him told him that what is in her womb is of the Holy Spirit. 4 Then he was afraid, and did not put her away; but on the occasion of the first census which was taken in Judea, under Cyrenius, he went up from Nazareth, where he lived, to Bethlehem, to which he belonged, to be enrolled; for his family was of the tribe of Judah, which then inhabited that region. Then along with Mary he is ordered to proceed into Egypt, and remain there with the Child until another revelation warn them to return into Judea. 5 But when the Child was born in Bethlehem, since Joseph could not find a lodging in that village, he took up his quarters in a certain cave near the village; and while they were there Mary brought forth the Christ and placed Him in a manger, and here the Magi who came from Arabia found Him. 6 I have repeated to you,” I continued, “what Isaiah foretold about the sign which foreshadowed the cave; but for the sake of those who have come with us today, I shall again remind you of the passage.” Then I repeated the passage from Isaiah which I have already written (= Isaiah 33.13-19; Dialogue 70.1-3), adding that, by means of those words, those who presided over the mysteries of Mithras were stirred up by the devil to say that in a place, called among them a cave, they were initiated by him. 7 “So Herod, when the Magi from Arabia did not return to him, as he had asked them to do, but had departed by another way to their own country, according to the commands laid on them; and when Joseph, with Mary and the Child, had now gone into Egypt, as it was revealed to them to do; as he did not know the Child whom the Magi had gone to worship, ordered simply the whole of the children then in Bethlehem to be massacred. 8 And Jeremiah prophesied that this would happen, speaking by the Holy Spirit thus, ‘A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and much wailing, Rachel weeping for her children; and she would not be comforted, because they are not’ (= Jeremiah 31.15). Therefore, on account of the voice which would be heard from Ramah, that is, from Arabia, for there is in Arabia at this very time a place called Rama, wailing would come on the place where Rachel the wife of Jacob called Israel, the holy patriarch, has been buried, that is, on Bethlehem; while the women weep for their own slaughtered children, and have no consolation by reason of what has happened to them. 9 For that expression of Isaiah, ‘He shall take the power of Damascus and spoils of Samaria’ (= Isaiah 8.4), foretold that the power of the evil demon that dwelt in Damascus should be overcome by Christ as soon as He was born; and this is proved to have happened. For the Magi, who were held in bondage for the commission of all evil deeds through the power of that demon, by coming to worship Christ, shows that they have revolted from that dominion which held them captive; and this the Scripture has showed us to reside in Damascus. 10 Moreover, that sinful and unjust power is termed well in parable, Samaria. And none of you can deny that Damascus was, and is, in the region of Arabia (although now it belongs to what is called Syrophoenicia). Hence it would be becoming for you, O men, to learn what you have not perceived, from those who have received grace from God, namely, from us Christians; and not to strive in every way to maintain your own doctrines, dishonoring those of God. 11 Therefore also this grace has been transferred to us, as Isaiah says, speaking to the following effect, ‘This people draws near to Me, they honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; but in vain they worship Me, teaching the commands and doctrines of men. Therefore, behold, I will proceed to remove this people, and I shall remove them; and I shall take away the wisdom of their wise men, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent men’ (= Isaiah 29-13-14).” / 1 «Καὶ γὰρ οὗτος ὁ βασιλεὺς Ἡρώδης, μαθὼν παρὰ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τοῦ λαοῦ ὑμῶν, τότε ἐλθόντων πρὸς αὐτὸν τῶν ἀπὸ Ἀρραβίας μάγων, καὶ εἰπόντων ἐξ ἀστέρος τοῦ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ φανέντος ἐγνωκέναι ὅτι βασιλεὺς γεγένηται ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ ὑμῶν, καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτόν, καὶ ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων εἰπόντων, ὅτι γέγραπται ἐν τῷ προφήτῃ οὕτως, ‹Καὶ σὺ Βηθλεέμ, γῆ Ἰούδα, οὐδαμῶς ἐλαχίστη εἶ ἐν τοῖς ἡγεμόσιν Ἰούδα· ἐκ σοῦ γὰρ ἐξελεύσεται ἡγούμενος, ὅστις ποιμανεῖ τὸν λαόν μου.› 2 τῶν ἀπὸ Ἀρραβίας οὖν μάγων ἐλθόντων εἰς Βηθλεὲμ καὶ προσκυνησάντων τὸ παιδίον καὶ προσενεγκάντων αὐτῷ δῶρα, χρυσὸν καὶ λίβανον καὶ σμύρναν, ἔπειτα κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν, μετὰ τὸ προσκυνῆσαι τὸν παῖδα ἐν Βηθλεέμ, ἐκελεύσθησαν μὴ ἐπανελθεῖν πρὸς τὸν Ἡρώδην. 3 καὶ Ἰωσὴφ δέ, ὁ τὴν Μαρίαν μεμνηστευμένος, βουληθεὶς πρότερον ἐκβαλεῖν τὴν μνηστὴν αὐτῷ Μαριάμ, νομίζων ἐγκυμονεῖν αὐτὴν ἀπὸ συνουσίας ἀνδρός, τοῦτ´ ἔστιν ἀπὸ πορνείας, δι´ ὁράματος κεκέλευστο μὴ ἐκβαλεῖν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, εἰπόντος αὐτῷ τοῦ φανέντος ἀγγέλου ὅτι ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου ὃ ἔχει κατὰ γαστρός ἐστι. 4 φοβηθεὶς οὖν οὐκ ἐκβέβληκεν αὐτήν, ἀλλά, ἀπογραφῆς οὔσης ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ τότε πρώτης ἐπὶ Κυρηνίου, ἀνεληλύθει ἀπὸ Ναζαρέτ, ἔνθα ᾤκει, εἰς Βηθλεέμ, ὅθεν ἦν, ἀπογράψασθαι· ἀπὸ γὰρ τῆς κατοικούσης τὴν γῆν ἐκείνην φυλῆς Ἰούδα τὸ γένος ἦν. καὶ αὐτὸς ἅμα τῇ Μαρίᾳ κελεύεται ἐξελθεῖν εἰς Αἴγυπτον καὶ εἶναι ἐκεῖ ἅμα τῷ παιδίῳ, ἄχρις ἂν αὐτοῖς πάλιν ἀποκαλυφθῇ ἐπανελθεῖν εἰς τὴν Ἰουδαίαν. 5 γεννηθέντος δὲ τότε τοῦ παιδίου ἐν Βηθλεέμ, ἐπειδὴ Ἰωσὴφ οὐκ εἶχεν ἐν τῇ κώμῃ ἐκείνῃ που καταλῦσαι, ἐν σπηλαίῳ τινὶ σύνεγγυς τῆς κώμης κατέλυσε· καὶ τότε, αὐτῶν ὄντων ἐκεῖ, ἐτετόκει ἡ Μαρία τὸν Χριστὸν καὶ ἐν φάτνῃ αὐτὸν ἐτεθείκει, ὅπου ἐλθόντες οἱ ἀπὸ Ἀρραβίας μάγοι εὗρον αὐτόν. 6 ὅτι δὲ Ἠσαίας καὶ περὶ τοῦ συμβόλου τοῦ κατὰ τὸ σπήλαιον προεκεκηρύχει, ἀνιστόρησα ὑμῖν,» ἔφην, «καὶ δι´ αὐτοὺς δὲ τοὺς σήμερον σὺν ὑμῖν ἐλθόντας πάλιν τῆς περικοπῆς ἐπιμνησθήσομαι,» εἶπον· καὶ ἀνιστόρησα ἣν καὶ προέγραψα ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἠσαίου περικοπήν, εἰπὼν διὰ τοὺς λόγους ἐκείνους τοὺς τὰ Μίθρα μυστήρια παραδιδόντας, ἐν τόπῳ ἐπικαλουμένῳ παρ´ αὐτοῖς σπηλαίῳ μυεῖσθαι ὑπ´ αὐτῶν, ὑπὸ τοῦ διαβόλου ἐνεργηθῆναι εἰπεῖν. 7 «Καὶ ὁ Ἡρώδης, μὴ ἐπανελθόντων πρὸς αὐτὸν τῶν ἀπὸ Ἀρραβίας μάγων, ὡς ἠξίωσεν αὐτοὺς ποιῆσαι, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὰ κελευσθέντα αὐτοῖς δι´ ἄλλης ὁδοῦ εἰς τὴν χώραν αὐτῶν ἀπαλλαγέντων, καὶ τοῦ Ἰωσὴφ ἅμα τῇ Μαρίᾳ καὶ τῷ παιδίῳ, ὡς καὶ αὐτοῖς ἀποκεκάλυπτο, ἤδη ἐξελθόντων εἰς Αἴγυπτον, οὐ γινώσκων τὸν παῖδα, ὃν ἐληλύθεισαν προσκυνῆσαι οἱ μάγοι, πάντας ἁπλῶς τοὺς παῖδας τοὺς ἐν Βηθλεὲμ ἐκέλευσεν ἀναιρεθῆναι. 8 καὶ τοῦτο ἐπεπροφήτευτο μέλλειν γίνεσθαι διὰ Ἰερεμίου, εἰπόντος δι´ αὐτοῦ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος οὕτως, ‹Φωνὴ ἐν Ῥαμᾶ ἠκούσθη, κλαυθμὸς καὶ ὀδυρμὸς πολύς· Ῥαχὴλ κλαίουσα τὰ τέκνα αὐτῆς, καὶ οὐκ ἤθελε παρακληθῆναι, ὅτι οὐκ εἰσί.› διὰ οὖν τὴν φωνήν, ἣ ἔμελλεν ἀκούεσθαι ἀπὸ Ῥαμᾶ, τοῦτ´ ἔστιν ἀπὸ τῆς Ἀρραβίας (ἔστι γὰρ καὶ μέχρι τοῦ νῦν τόπος καλούμενος ἐν Ἀρραβίᾳ Ῥαμᾶ), κλαυθμὸς ἔμελλεν τὸν τόπον καταλαμβάνειν, ὅπου Ῥαχήλ, ἡ γυνὴ Ἰακώβ, τοῦ ἐπικληθέντος Ἰσραήλ, τοῦ ἁγίου πατριάρχου, τέθαπται, τοῦτ´ ἔστι τὴν Βηθλεέμ, κλαιουσῶν τῶν γυναικῶν τὰ τέκνα τὰ ἴδια τὰ ἀνῃρημένα καὶ μὴ παράκλησιν ἐχουσῶν ἐπὶ τῷ συμβεβηκότι αὐταῖς. 9 καὶ γὰρ τὸ εἰπεῖν τὸν Ἠσαίαν, ‹Λήψεται δύναμιν Δαμασκοῦ καὶ σκῦλα Σαμαρείας,› τὴν τοῦ πονηροῦ δαίμονος, τοῦ ἐν Δαμασκῷ οἰκοῦντος, δύναμιν ἐσήμαινε νικηθήσεσθαι τῷ Χριστῷ ἅμα τῷ γεννηθῆναι· ὅπερ δείκνυται γεγενημένον. οἱ γὰρ μάγοι, οἵτινες ἐσκυλευμένοι ἦσαν πρὸς πάσας κακὰς πράξεις, τὰς ἐνεργουμένας ὑπὸ τοῦ δαιμονίου ἐκείνου, ἐλθόντες καὶ προσκυνήσαντες τῷ Χριστῷ φαίνονται ἀποστάντες τῆς σκυλευσάσης αὐτοὺς δυνάμεως ἐκείνης, ἣν ἐν μυστηρίῳ ἐσήμαινεν ἡμῖν ὁ λόγος οἰκεῖν ἐν Δαμασκῷ. 10 ἁμαρτωλὸν δὲ καὶ ἄδικον οὖσαν ἐν παραβολῇ τὴν δύναμιν ἐκείνην καλῶς Σαμαρείαν καλεῖ. ὅτι δὲ Δαμασκὸς τῆς Ἀρραβικῆς γῆς ἦν καὶ ἔστιν (εἰ καὶ νῦν προσνενέμηται τῇ Συροφοινίκῃ λεγομένῃ) οὐδ´ ὑμῶν τινες ἀρνήσασθαι δύνανται. ὥστε καλὸν ἂν εἴη ὑμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες, ἃ μὴ νενοήκατε, παρὰ τῶν λαβόντων χάριν ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν τῶν Χριστιανῶν μανθάνειν, ἀλλὰ μὴ κατὰ πάντα ἀγωνίζεσθαι τὰ ὑμέτερα διδάγματα κρατύνειν, ἀτιμάζοντας τὰ τοῦ θεοῦ. 11 διὸ καὶ εἰς ἡμᾶς μετετέθη ἡ χάρις αὕτη, ὡς Ἠσαίας φησὶν εἰπὼν οὕτως, ‹Ἐγγίζει μοι ὁ λαὸς οὗτος· τοῖς χείλεσιν αὐτῶν τιμῶσί με, ἡ δὲ καρδία αὐτῶν πόρρω ἀπέχει ἀπ´ ἐμοῦ· μάτην δὲ σέβονταί με, ἐντάλματα ἀνθρώπων καὶ διδασκαλίας διδάσκοντες. διὰ τοῦτο ἰδού, ἐγὼ προσθήσω τοῦ μεταθεῖναι τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον, καὶ μεταθήσω αὐτούς, καὶ ἀφελῶ τὴν σοφίαν τῶν σοφῶν αὐτῶν, τὴν δὲ σύνεσιν τῶν συνετῶν ἀθετήσω.›»

Isaiah 33.13-19: 13 “You who are far away, hear what I have done, and you who are near, acknowledge My might.” 14 Sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling has seized the godless. “Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with everlasting burning?” 15 One who walks righteously and speaks with integrity, one who rejects unjust gain and shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; one who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed and shuts his eyes from looking at evil. 16 He will dwell in a highest cave; his refuge will be the impregnable rock; his bread will be given him; his water will be sure. 17 Your eyes will see the King in His beauty; they will see a distant land. 18 Your heart will meditate on terror. “Where is one who counts? Where is one who weighs? Where is one who counts the towers?” 19 You will no longer see a fierce people, a people of unintelligible speech which no one comprehends, of a stammering tongue which no one understands. / 13 «Ἀκούσονται οἱ πόρρωθεν ἃ ἐποίησα· γνώσονται οἱ ἐγγίζοντες τὴν ἰσχύν μου.» 14 ἀπέστησαν οἱ ἐν Σιων ἄνομοι· λήμψεται τρόμος τοὺς ἀσεβεῖς· «Τίς ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν ὅτι πῦρ καίεται; τίς ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν τὸν τόπον τὸν αἰώνιον;» 15 πορευόμενος ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ, λαλῶν εὐθεῖαν, ὁδόν μισῶν ἀνομίαν καὶ ἀδικίαν καὶ τὰς χεῖρας ἀποσειόμενος ἀπὸ δώρων, βαρύνων τὰ ὦτα ἵνα μὴ ἀκούσῃ κρίσιν αἵματος, καμμύων τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς ἵνα μὴ ἴδῃ ἀδικίαν, 16 οὗτος οἰκήσει ἐν ὑψηλῷ σπηλαίῳ, πέτρας ἰσχυρᾶς, ἄρτος αὐτῷ δοθήσεται καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ αὐτοῦ πιστόν. 17 βασιλέα μετὰ δόξης ὄψεσθε καὶ οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ ὑμῶν ὄψονται γῆν πόρρωθεν. 18 ἡ ψυχὴ ὑμῶν μελετήσει φόβον. «Ποῦ εἰσιν οἱ γραμματικοί; ποῦ εἰσιν οἱ συμβουλεύοντες; ποῦ ἐστιν ὁ ἀριθμῶν τοὺς τρεφομένους;» 19 μικρὸν καὶ μέγαν λαόν ᾧ οὐ συνεβουλεύσαντο, οὐδὲ ᾔδει βαθύφωνον ὥστε μὴ ἀκοῦσαι λαὸς πεφαυλισμένος καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν τῷ ἀκούοντι σύνεσις.

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by Secret Alias »

Dositheos died in a cave in a manner that seems to some like an echo of Mark.
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

The cave story was in the Memoirs of the Apostles called Gospels because it is corroborated by Origen in Against Celsus 1.51.

Origen's Against Celsus 1.51
With respect to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, if any one desires, after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources, let him know that, in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth, there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling-clothes.

And this sight is greatly talked of in surrounding places, even among the enemies of the faith, it being said that in this cave was born that Jesus who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians.[/quote]

It must be noted that Origen specifically states the cave story is found in the Gospels by the disciples.

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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources,
The evidence from other sources is additional of what shows in the gospels.

in conformity with the narrative in the Gospel regarding His birth,
there is shown at Bethlehem the cave where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling-clothes.

The conformity with gLuke means the family had to move out of the inn to a place (unnamed), which of course could be thought to be a cave:
2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son; and she wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

And some of the additional evidence would be:
And this sight is greatly talked of in surrounding places, even among the enemies of the faith, it being said that in this cave was born that Jesus who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:after the prophecy of Micah and after the history recorded in the Gospels by the disciples of Jesus, to have additional evidence from other sources,
Bernard Muller wrote:The evidence from other sources is additional of what shows in the gospels.
Let's go through this one more time very slowly.

1. In gMatthew 2.11 After birth the baby Jesus was found in a house.

2. In gLuke 2.7 After birth the baby Jesus was laid in a manger.

3. In Justin's Memoirs of the Apostles the baby Jesus was born in a cave and laid in a manger.

If the cave was found then such a finding is in conformity with the history recorded in Justin's Memoirs of the Apostles and Origen's Gospel of the disciples.
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