dating the gospels?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Hakeem,
3. In Justin's Memoirs of the Apostles the baby Jesus was born in a cave and laid in a manger.
No evidence for that. In Dialogue 78:5, Justin mentioned gospels and gospel and a cave in Bethlehem, but not Memoirs of the apostles. And Ben told us the cave was imagined from Isaiah by Justin: "Isaiah foretold about the sign which foreshadowed the cave"
Dialogue, 78:6

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:59 pm to Hakeem,
3. In Justin's Memoirs of the Apostles the baby Jesus was born in a cave and laid in a manger.
No evidence for that. In Dialogue 78:5, Justin mentioned gospels and gospel and a cave in Bethlehem, but not Memoirs of the apostles. And Ben told us the cave was imagined from Isaiah by Justin: "Isaiah foretold about the sign which foreshadowed the cave"
Dialogue, 78:6

Cordially, Bernard
Well, if the cave story is in Isaiah then the finding of the cave is also in conformity with Isaiah --not gMatthew or gLuke. You probably have forgotten that Justin did not mention Gospels called gMatthew, gMark, gLuke and gJohn.
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arnoldo
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Re: dating the gospels?

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FWIW, Justin does mention The "Acts" of Pilate.
About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives. 'But the words, "They pierced my hands and my feet," ' he says, 'are a description of the nails that were fixed in His hands and His feet on the cross; and after He was crucified, those who crucified Him cast lots for His garments, and divided them among themselves; and that these things were so, you may learn from the "Acts" which were recorded under Pontius Pilate." Later he says: 'That He performed these miracles you may easily be satisfied from the "Acts" of Pontius Pilate." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: dating the gospels?

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arnoldo wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:33 pm FWIW, Justin does mention The "Acts" of Pilate.
About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives. 'But the words, "They pierced my hands and my feet," ' he says, 'are a description of the nails that were fixed in His hands and His feet on the cross; and after He was crucified, those who crucified Him cast lots for His garments, and divided them among themselves; and that these things were so, you may learn from the "Acts" which were recorded under Pontius Pilate." Later he says: 'That He performed these miracles you may easily be satisfied from the "Acts" of Pontius Pilate." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html

Similarly, he refers to census records made under Quirinius (references to the Acts made under Pilate given for the sake of completeness):

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 34.2: 2 Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can learn also from the census records made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea. / 2 Κώμη δέ τίς ἐστιν ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ Ἰουδαίων, ἀπέχουσα σταδίους τριάκοντα πέντε Ἰεροσολύμων, ἐν ᾗ ἐγεννήθη Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ὡς καὶ μαθεῖν δύνασθε ἐκ τῶν ἀπογραφῶν τῶν γενομένων ἐπὶ Κυρηνίου, τοῦ ὑμετέρου ἐν Ἰουδαίᾳ πρώτου γενομένου ἐπιτρόπου.

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 35.8-9: 8 And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. 9 And that these things did happen you can learn from the Acts made under Pontius Pilate. / 8 Καὶ μετὰ τὸ σταυρῶσαι αὐτὸν ἔβαλον κλῆρον ἐπὶ τὸν ἱματισμὸν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐμερίσαντο ἑαυτοῖς οἱ σταυρώσαντες αὐτόν. 9 καὶ ταῦτα ὅτι γέγονε, δύνασθε μαθεῖν ἐκ τῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου γενομένων ἄκτων.

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 48.1-3: 1 And that it was predicted that our Christ should heal all diseases and raise the dead, hear what was said. 2 There are these words, “At His coming the lame shall leap as an hart, and the tongue of the stammerer shall be clear speaking; the blind shall see, and the lepers shall be cleansed; and the dead shall rise and walk about” (= Isaiah 35.6). 3 And that He did those things you can learn from the Acts made under Pontius Pilate. / 1 Ὅτι δὲ καὶ θεραπεύσειν πάσας νόσους καὶ νεκροὺς ἀνεγερεῖν ὁ ἡμέτερος Χριστὸς προεφητεύθη, ἀκούσατε τῶν λελεγμένων. 2 ἔστι δὲ ταῦτα, «Τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ ἁλεῖται χωλὸς ὡς ἔλαφος, καὶ τρανὴ ἔσται γλῶσσα μογιλάλων· τυφλοὶ ἀναβλέψουσι καὶ λεπροὶ καθαρισθήσονται καὶ νεκροὶ ἀναστήσονται καὶ περιπατήσουσιν.» 3 ὅτι τε ταῦτα ἐποίησεν, ἐκ τῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου γενομένων ἄκτων μαθεῖν δύνασθε.

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billd89
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cora reads like one of the very best trolls in my own little history of the internet.
Her theories are outstanding. I feel blessed, here. Don't change, people!
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

arnoldo wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:33 pm FWIW, Justin does mention The "Acts" of Pilate.
About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives. 'But the words, "They pierced my hands and my feet," ' he says, 'are a description of the nails that were fixed in His hands and His feet on the cross; and after He was crucified, those who crucified Him cast lots for His garments, and divided them among themselves; and that these things were so, you may learn from the "Acts" which were recorded under Pontius Pilate." Later he says: 'That He performed these miracles you may easily be satisfied from the "Acts" of Pontius Pilate." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html

It is almost certain that if Justin knew of Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts of the Apostles and Pauline Epistles he would have identified them by name as his sources. Justin was one of the very few Christian writers who always identified his sources by name.

The fact that Justin mentioned stories of Jesus and identified his source as the Memoirs of the Apostles means he had no knowledge at all of gMathhew, gMark, gLuke and gJohn.

It would appear that of all NT books only the Apocalypse of John predates the time of Justin.
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arnoldo
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by arnoldo »

hakeem wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:24 am It is almost certain that if Justin knew of Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts of the Apostles and Pauline Epistles he would have identified them by name as his sources. Justin was one of the very few Christian writers who always identified his sources by name.

The fact that Justin mentioned stories of Jesus and identified his source as the Memoirs of the Apostles means he had no knowledge at all of gMathhew, gMark, gLuke and gJohn.

It would appear that of all NT books only the Apocalypse of John predates the time of Justin.
Granted that Justin had no knowledge at all of gMatthew, gMark, gLuke and gJohn, then it's significant that Justin apparently has a source outside of these gospels for Pontius Pilate's participation in the crucifixion. In Justin's other writings he also doesn't directly state the source of the scripture he is referring to. For example, in the following passage from Justin's lost work on the resurrection he cites the following passages without providing a source.
  • "They neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but shall be as the angels in heaven"
    "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance"
    "You have not yet faith, see that it is I;"
    "He was taken up into heaven while they beheld,"
You can see the corresponding verses in the gMark, gLuke and Acts at the following link.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the gospels?

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to hakeem,
if Justin knew of Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts of the Apostles and Pauline Epistles he would have identified them by name as his sources
The gospels were not attributed authors in the time of Justin.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles/: The title "Acts of the Apostles" was first used by Irenaeus in the late 2nd century.
In the surviving writings of Justin (his work against Marcion being lost), Justin never commented on Paul's and Paul's epistles.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:47 am to hakeem,
if Justin knew of Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts of the Apostles and Pauline Epistles he would have identified them by name as his sources
The gospels were not attributed authors in the time of Justin.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles/: The title "Acts of the Apostles" was first used by Irenaeus in the late 2nd century.
In the surviving writings of Justin (his work against Marcion being lost), Justin never commented on Paul's and Paul's epistles.

Cordially, Bernard
Justin could not have commented on the supposed Paul or the Epistles because Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Epistles were not yet written.
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arnoldo
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Re: dating the gospels?

Post by arnoldo »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:44 pm
arnoldo wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:33 pm FWIW, Justin does mention The "Acts" of Pilate.
About AD 150 Justin Martyr, addressing his Defence of Christianity to the Emperor Antoninius Pius, referred him to Pilate's report, which Justin supposed must be preserved in the imperial archives. 'But the words, "They pierced my hands and my feet," ' he says, 'are a description of the nails that were fixed in His hands and His feet on the cross; and after He was crucified, those who crucified Him cast lots for His garments, and divided them among themselves; and that these things were so, you may learn from the "Acts" which were recorded under Pontius Pilate." Later he says: 'That He performed these miracles you may easily be satisfied from the "Acts" of Pontius Pilate." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/actspilate.html

Similarly, he refers to census records made under Quirinius (references to the Acts made under Pilate given for the sake of completeness):

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 34.2: 2 Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can learn also from the census records made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea. / 2 Κώμη δέ τίς ἐστιν ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ Ἰουδαίων, ἀπέχουσα σταδίους τριάκοντα πέντε Ἰεροσολύμων, ἐν ᾗ ἐγεννήθη Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ὡς καὶ μαθεῖν δύνασθε ἐκ τῶν ἀπογραφῶν τῶν γενομένων ἐπὶ Κυρηνίου, τοῦ ὑμετέρου ἐν Ἰουδαίᾳ πρώτου γενομένου ἐπιτρόπου.

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 35.8-9: 8 And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. 9 And that these things did happen you can learn from the Acts made under Pontius Pilate. / 8 Καὶ μετὰ τὸ σταυρῶσαι αὐτὸν ἔβαλον κλῆρον ἐπὶ τὸν ἱματισμὸν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐμερίσαντο ἑαυτοῖς οἱ σταυρώσαντες αὐτόν. 9 καὶ ταῦτα ὅτι γέγονε, δύνασθε μαθεῖν ἐκ τῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου γενομένων ἄκτων.

Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 48.1-3: 1 And that it was predicted that our Christ should heal all diseases and raise the dead, hear what was said. 2 There are these words, “At His coming the lame shall leap as an hart, and the tongue of the stammerer shall be clear speaking; the blind shall see, and the lepers shall be cleansed; and the dead shall rise and walk about” (= Isaiah 35.6). 3 And that He did those things you can learn from the Acts made under Pontius Pilate. / 1 Ὅτι δὲ καὶ θεραπεύσειν πάσας νόσους καὶ νεκροὺς ἀνεγερεῖν ὁ ἡμέτερος Χριστὸς προεφητεύθη, ἀκούσατε τῶν λελεγμένων. 2 ἔστι δὲ ταῦτα, «Τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ ἁλεῖται χωλὸς ὡς ἔλαφος, καὶ τρανὴ ἔσται γλῶσσα μογιλάλων· τυφλοὶ ἀναβλέψουσι καὶ λεπροὶ καθαρισθήσονται καὶ νεκροὶ ἀναστήσονται καὶ περιπατήσουσιν.» 3 ὅτι τε ταῦτα ἐποίησεν, ἐκ τῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου γενομένων ἄκτων μαθεῖν δύνασθε.

The following passage in the Acts of Pilate also may've in part led to the significance attributed to the date December 25.

In the fifteenth year of the government of Tiberius Caesar, emperor of the Romans, and Herod being king of Galilee, in the nineteenth year of his rule, on the eighth day before the Kalends of April, which is the twenty-fifth of March, in the consulship of Rufus and Rubellio, in the fourth year of the two hundred and second Olympiad, Joseph Caiaphas being high priest of the Jews.

https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/202 ... christmas/
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