Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

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hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:If Pliny did not how to punish Christians then why did he execute those who confessed they were Christians?
Pliny had already executed Christians before the letter was written.
Bernard Muller wrote:Well, Trajan was not a phone call away. Communications between Trajan and Pliny on his road trip would take weeks. So Pliny had to decide on his own on how to deal with Christians in that city.
So, the letter makes no sense whatsoever since Pliny is claiming he does not know what punishment Christians deserve and is asking for advice from Trajan

The non-Roman Christians were already executed, Roman Christians were sent to Rome and all the others were not Christians who cursed Christ and worshiped Trajan as a God.
Last edited by hakeem on Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
It makes no sense whatsoever for Pliny to have executed Christians if he did know what punishment they deserved and then to torture non-Christians who cursed Christ and worship the statue of Trajan to find out what Christians believed up to 25 years earlier.
That's expeditive Roman justice on people with depraved, excessive superstition and not worshipping Trajan. Christians were not popular, more so when they disrupted the local economy (in that case, sacrificed meat not being sold).

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:It makes no sense whatsoever for Pliny to have executed Christians if he did know what punishment they deserved and then to torture non-Christians who cursed Christ and worship the statue of Trajan to find out what Christians believed up to 25 years earlier.
Bernard Muller wrote:That's expeditive Roman justice on people with depraved, excessive superstition and not worshipping Trajan. Christians were not popular, more so when they disrupted the local economy (in that case, sacrificed meat not being sold).

Cordially, Bernard
Pliny letter to Trajan]
It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt.

For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance?

I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Pliny, a supposed Magistrate, to claim he does not even know what offenses to investigate or punish after having executed Christians.

The Pliny letter to Trajan about Christians appears to be a forgery.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

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(duplicate)
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Aleph One wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:50 amSo what is even the crime here? Violating Trajan's ban on secret societies? It comes off as crazy extreme to execute people for something you barely even know about.
That's a point that early Christian apologists themselves made. Here is Justin Martyr and Tertullian on the subject:

Justin Martyr, Second Apology
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ology.html

And when Urbicus ordered him to be led away to punishment, one Lucius, who was also himself a Christian, seeing the unreasonable judgment that had thus been given, said to Urbicus: "What is the ground of this judgment? Why have you punished this man, not as an adulterer, nor fornicator, nor murderer, nor thief, nor robber, nor convicted of any crime at all, but who has only confessed that he is called by the name of Christian? This judgment of yours, O Urbicus, does not become the Emperor Pius, nor the philosopher, the son of Caesar, nor the sacred senate." And he said nothing else in answer to Lucius than this: "You also seem to me to be such an one." And when Lucius answered, "Most certainly I am," he again ordered him also to be led away.

Justin Martyr, First Apology

CHAPTER IV -- CHRISTIANS UNJUSTLY CONDEMNED FOR THEIR MERE NAME.

By the mere application of a name, nothing is decided, either good or evil, apart from the actions implied in the name; and indeed, so far at least as one may judge from the name we are accused of, we are most excellent people. But as we do not think it just to beg to be acquitted on account of the name, if we be convicted as evildoers, so, on the other hand, if we be found to have committed no offence, either in the matter of thus naming ourselves, or of our conduct as citizens, it is your part very earnestly to guard against incurring just punishment, by unjustly punishing those who are not convicted. For from a name neither praise nor punishment could reasonably spring, unless something excellent or base in action be proved. And those among yourselves who are accused you do not punish before they are convicted; but in our case you receive the name as proof against us, and this although, so far as the name goes, you ought rather to punish our accusers. For we are accused of being Christians, and to hate what is excellent (Chrestian) is unjust. Again, if any of the accused deny the name, and say that he is not a Christian, you acquit him, as having no evidence against him as a wrong-doer; but if any one acknowledge that he is a Christian, you punish him on account of this acknowledgment. Justice requires that you inquire into the life both of him who confesses and of him who denies, that by his deeds it may be apparent what kind of man each is.

Tertullian, Ad Nationes

CHAP. III.--THE GREAT OFFENCE IN THE CHRISTIANS LIES IN THEIR VERY NAME. THE NAME VINDICATED.

Since, therefore, you who are in other cases most scrupulous and persevering in investigating charges of far less serious import, relinquish your care in cases like ours, which are so horrible, and of such surpassing sin that impiety is too mild a word for them, by declining to hear confession, which should always be an important process for those who conduct judicial proceedings; and failing to make a full inquiry, which should be gone into by such as sue for a condemnation, it becomes evident that the crime laid to our charge consists not of any sinful conduct, but lies wholly in our name. If, indeed, any real crimes were clearly adducible against us, their very names would condemn us, if found applicable, so that distinct sentences would be pronounced against us in this wise: Let that murderer, or that incestuous criminal, or whatever it be that we are charged with, be led to execution, be crucified, or be thrown to the beasts. Your sentences, however, import only that one has confessed himself a Christian. No name of a crime stands against us, but only the crime of a name. Now this in very deed is neither more nor less than the entire odium which is felt against us. The name is the cause: some mysterious force intensified by your ignorance assails it, so that you do not wish to know for certain that which for certain you are sure you know nothing of; and therefore, further, you do not believe things which are not submitted to proof, and, lest they should be easily refuted, you refuse to make inquiry, so that the odious name is punished under the presumption of (real) crimes.

You get an idea of what pagans thought that Christians were about in Minucius Felix's "Octavian" (c 160 CE), probably my favorite piece of early Christian writing. The author has a pagan making accusations against Christians, with a Christian then responding. I don't doubt that the accusations raised in the first part of the text reflected real-life views of the pagans about Christianity:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... avius.html

And now, as wickeder things advance more fruitfully, and abandoned manners creep on day by day, those abominable shrines of an impious assembly are maturing themselves throughout the whole world. Assuredly this confederacy ought to be rooted out and execrated. They know one another by secret marks and insignia, and they love one another almost before they know one another. Everywhere also there is mingled among them a certain religion of lust, and they call one another promiscuously brothers and sisters, that even a not unusual debauchery may by the intervention of that sacred name become incestuous: it is thus that their vain and senseless superstition glories in crimes. Nor, concerning these things, would intelligent report speak of things so great and various, and requiring to be prefaced by an apology, unless truth were at the bottom of it. I hear that they adore the head of an ass, that basest of creatures, consecrated by I know not what silly persuasion,--a worthy and appropriate religion for such manners. Some say that they worship the virilia of their pontiff and priest, and adore the nature, as it were, of their common parent. I know not whether these things are false; certainly suspicion is applicable to secret and nocturnal rites; and he who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men, that they may worship what they deserve. Now the story about the initiation of young novices is as much to be detested as it is well known. An infant covered over with meal, that it may deceive the unwary, is placed before him who is to be stained with their rites: this infant is slain by the young pupil, who has been urged on as if to harmless blows on the surface of the meal, with dark and secret wounds.

Thirstily--O horror!--they lick up its blood; eagerly they divide its limbs. By this victim they are pledged together; with this consciousness of wickedness they are covenanted to mutual silence. Such sacred rites as these are more foul than any sacrileges. And of their banqueting it is well known all men speak of it everywhere; even the speech of our Cirtensian testifies to it. On a solemn day they assemble at the feast, with all their children, sisters, mothers, people of every sex and of every age. There, after much feasting, when the fellowship has grown warm, and the fervour of incestuous lust has grown hot with drunkenness, a dog that has been tied to the chandelier is provoked, by throwing a small piece of offal beyond the length of a line by which he is bound, to rush and spring; and thus the conscious light being overturned and extinguished in the shameless darkness, the connections of abominable lust involve them in the uncertainty of fate. Although not all in fact, yet in consciousness all are alike incestuous, since by the desire of all of them everything is sought for which can happen in the act of each individual.

I purposely pass over many things, for those that I have mentioned are already too many; and that all these, or the greater part of them, are true, the obscurity of their vile religion declares. For why do they endeavour with such pains to conceal and to cloak whatever they worship, since honourable things always rejoice in publicity, while crimes are kept secret? Why have they no altars, no temples, no acknowledged images?

"Although not all in fact, yet in consciousness all are alike incestuous, the desire of all of them everything is sought for which can happen in the act of each individual" is the key phrase here. I'm not American (I'm an Australian), but I've been following American politics for the last few years. It does seem that if someone declares he and she supports a particular person -- on either side of politics -- for President, a whole slew of crimes are assigned to that person. "They are all alike" is the rationale. Simple support is enough to convict.

Justin Martyr thought that demons were stirring up false accusations against Christians. He also called the Roman gods "demons" in his letters to the Emperor, thus no doubt earning the name "martyr"!
Bernard Muller
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Pliny, a supposed Magistrate, to claim he does not even know what offenses to investigate or punish after having executed Christians.
A magistrate who never participated in trials of Christians and never had to deal before of a Christian "problem".

Cordially, Bernard
Aleph One
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Aleph One »

hakeem wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:33 amSo, the letter makes no sense whatsoever since Pliny is claiming he does not know what punishment Christians deserve and is asking for advice from Trajan
(Oops, sorry I missed the notification on your reply somehow.) I do agree that this sounds possibly contradictory but perhaps Bernard is right in pointing to the communication distances involved and provincial autonomy. I'm sure there must be a lot of literature on Roman imperial government out there so I may be able to investigate whether the situation described in the letter rings true.
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:13 pmThat's a point that early Christian apologists themselves made. Here is Justin Martyr and Tertullian on the subject
Absolutely. Even the Pliny himself paints them out to be largely harmless. Also interesting sources, I always found the "gloves-off" apologetic literature to feel like some of the more personal and human of the early period (like parts of Paul's letters, as well).
hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:33 amSo, the letter makes no sense whatsoever since Pliny is claiming he does not know what punishment Christians deserve and is asking for advice from Trajan
Aleph One wrote: (Oops, sorry I missed the notification on your reply somehow.) I do agree that this sounds possibly contradictory but perhaps Bernard is right in pointing to the communication distances involved and provincial autonomy. I'm sure there must be a lot of literature on Roman imperial government out there so I may be able to investigate whether the situation described in the letter rings true.
It does not make sense for a magistrate to have executed the supposed Christians and then to ask for advice about how to punish them. I would have expected a magistrate to hold the supposed Christians in bonds and wait for Trajan's advice.

Even in the NT, it is claimed that Saul or Paul was held in bonds pending trial in Rome.
GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:13 pmThat's a point that early Christian apologists themselves made. Here is Justin Martyr and Tertullian on the subject
Aleph One wrote: Absolutely. Even the Pliny himself paints them out to be largely harmless. Also interesting sources, I always found the "gloves-off" apologetic literature to feel like some of the more personal and human of the early period (like parts of Paul's letters, as well).
Pliny the younger does not paint Christians as harmless and that is why he executed them once they did not worship Trajan as a God. Refusing to worship Trajan as a God was a capital crime.

There were no letters of NT Paul known in the time of Pliny. If the so-called Epistles were written and circulated in the Churches for a hundred years then Justin would have known of them. He did not.
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billd89
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Re: #s from the context of Pliny’s letter

Post by billd89 »

Aleph One wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:52 am Here is the text of the letters mentioning Christians from the Early Christian Writings archive (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/pliny.html):
Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97

Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan
...
For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.
Triggered by some minor, local undescribed event?
An investigation was launched: less than 1 dozen or so were interrogated.
An Accusation is posted: several dozens more, w/ denials from the many falsely accused.
Some people - falsely accused of being Chrestiani, lapsed from whatever pagan cult AND many dozens more (worried of being accused in growing false & pretextual conspiracy) make a big show of returning to their temples. Overall: returning hundreds, in #s.

Pliny is noting the old pagan faiths were stale, on the wane in his jurisdiction: separate issue, for whatever reasons. (Reptentance for neglected religious faith was wanting.) A danger - always be on the lookout - was anything 'new' 'radical' and largely 'unfamiliar'. But this cult appeared to be another rather mundane superstition, and only among the dozen or so Chrestiani confirmed. There's nothing alarmist in the #s implied.

It wasn't and hadn't been a major problem before 112 AD in this province, so Pliny was still unfamiliar with the cult. Not unknown - unfamiliar. Again, low numbers are suggested from context: presumably, a few hundred Chrestiani are in the province overall. Now how many Christians?

Among accused Chrestiani, it sounds like the oldest members had joined the 'free lunch cult' casually c.85 AD. Nothing suggests explosive growth of the gentile Chrestiani-Christiani cult at this time and place. Its unclear to me how 'Jesus Christian' or proto-orthodox the movement was at Pontus/Bithynia c.85-112 AD. Might the 'event' bringing Chrestiani to the magistrate's attention have been occasioned by minor local scandal relating to a new 'Jesus Christ' push, first appearing in the small but steadily growing movement in the province? Possible, the letter was saved for posterity.

That is how I assess and understand the letter's data.
Aleph One
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Aleph One »

hakeem wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:02 amPliny the younger does not paint Christians as harmless and that is why he executed them once they did not worship Trajan as a God. Refusing to worship Trajan as a God was a capital crime.
I tried to reply a couple times to this but deleted them as I don't think I'm equipped to take a stance without more knowledge about standard Roman laws and punishment, etc. Also the definition of "harmless" is a tough. :cheeky:
billd89 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:38 amAmong accused Chrestiani, it sounds like the oldest members had joined the 'free lunch cult' casually c.85 AD.
This is kind of staring us in the face but it is a possibly significant data point to be noted: according to the letter Christianity (or Christians) came to Bithynia around 85 CE. Lots of caveats (like they could be long-time Christians who immigrated recently, or Christianity could have been there longer than any of the detainees had been members, etc.) but at least it's something solid. Also interesting when compared to presumed dates for Paul's letters, as many of the churches addressed were likewise in Asia-minor.
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