Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

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John2
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by John2 »

Aleph One wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:24 pm I'm just responding to a few of these as I read along the replies.
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:46 amWas Jesus ever considered a would-be Jewish revolutionary, though? I don't know any early source that portrayed Jesus that way. Christians were regarded as belonging to a superstitious sect according to Tacitus and Suetonius, rather than to a revolutionary one.
I can see your point. My line of thinking was more that he's accused of claiming to be "King of the Jews" and is obviously critical of the current Jewish leadership, who had been instated by the Romans, not to mention that the distinction between terrorist rebel and non-violent messiah may have been lost on representatives of the empire.
That's my line of thinking too. None of the Fourth Philosophic examples I gave above are described as being violent. They are only said to have "deceived and deluded the people under pretense of divine inspiration," which is very much like Jesus. And they were killed because the authorities "thought this procedure was to be the beginning of a revolt" (like in the account of John the Baptist).
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Ken Olson
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Ken Olson »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:46 am Was Jesus ever considered a would-be Jewish revolutionary, though? I don't know any early source that portrayed Jesus that way. Christians were regarded as belonging to a superstitious sect according to Tacitus and Suetonius, rather than to a revolutionary one.
There's Suetonius, Life of Claudius, 25.4:

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

Suetonius doesn't know the name Jesus (Celsus is the first pagan I know of who does), calls Christ Chrestus (a common confusion among pagans) and may even think he was actually in Rome during the reign of Claudius, but he does seem to think he was some sort of Jewish agitator. A few have argued that the Chrestus to whom Suetonius referred was a different person - a Jewish slave or freedman in Roman with the name Chrestus, but I think that's unnecessary. Suetonius' statement just reflects that most pagan Romans were largely unaware of an not especially concerned with the details of Christ and Christianity in the first and second centuries.

Best,

Ken
John2
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by John2 »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:47 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:46 am Was Jesus ever considered a would-be Jewish revolutionary, though? I don't know any early source that portrayed Jesus that way. Christians were regarded as belonging to a superstitious sect according to Tacitus and Suetonius, rather than to a revolutionary one.
There's Suetonius, Life of Claudius, 25.4:

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

Suetonius doesn't know the name Jesus (Celsus is the first pagan I know of who does), calls Christ Chrestus (a common confusion among pagans) and may even think he was actually in Rome during the reign of Claudius, but he does seem to think he was some sort of Jewish agitator. A few have argued that the Chrestus to whom Suetonius referred was a different person - a Jewish slave or freedman in Roman with the name Chrestus, but I think that's unnecessary. Suetonius' statement just reflects that most pagan Romans were largely unaware of an not especially concerned with the details of Christ and Christianity in the first and second centuries.

Best,

Ken

I agree with you, and it fits with Romans 13:1-7 (and 1 Peter 2:13-15). If it's not an interpolation, it indicates that there were some Christians who did oppose the governing authorities and paying taxes (as per the Fourth Philosophy) in Rome around that time.

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. Consequently, whoever resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and you will have his approval. For he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not carry the sword in vain. He is God’s servant, an agent of retribution to the wrongdoer.

Therefore it is necessary to submit to authority, not only to avoid punishment, but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes. For the authorities are God’s servants, who devote themselves to their work. Pay everyone what you owe him: taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by GakuseiDon »

John2 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:04 pmI agree with you, and it fits with Romans 13:1-7 (and 1 Peter 2:13-15). If it's not an interpolation, it indicates that there were some Christians who did oppose the governing authorities and paying taxes (as per the Fourth Philosophy) in Rome around that time.
I'd argue that there is a difference between opposing governing authorities/not wanting to pay taxes, and actual revolt. No-one accused Jesus (and therefore Christians) as revolutionaries as far as I know.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

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rgprice wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:16 am Yeah, this letter calls a lot of Christian lore into question. Pliny was highly educated in Rome and had many years of administrative experience by the time he wrote this letter. He, and apparently Trajan, had never heard of Christians before. The idea, then, that Nero had executed Paul and blamed a bunch of stuff on Christians, is reveled as total nonsense. Clearly, Christians weren't on the radar of major Roman administrators as of the beginning of the second century.
Even assuming that Christians in Rome were accused of setting the fire, would the Romans have punished Christians in Bithynia and Pontus for something that happened in Rome 50 years earlier and 1500 kilometres away? I doubt it very much.
John2
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:44 pm
John2 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:04 pmI agree with you, and it fits with Romans 13:1-7 (and 1 Peter 2:13-15). If it's not an interpolation, it indicates that there were some Christians who did oppose the governing authorities and paying taxes (as per the Fourth Philosophy) in Rome around that time.
I'd argue that there is a difference between opposing governing authorities/not wanting to pay taxes, and actual revolt. No-one accused Jesus (and therefore Christians) as revolutionaries as far as I know.

But Jesus says as much about himself in Mk. 14:61-62.

Again the high priest questioned him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”

“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

This is what Josephus says was the number one goal of Fourth Philosophers, that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." And in Jesus' case it is tied to Daniel's "son of man" figure, who is described in 7:14 as being "given dominion, glory and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed" (which the high priest was surely aware of).
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

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Sure, and I'm not saying that Jesus (if he even existed in the first place) was not a revolutionary. Aleph One expressed surprise that Pliny "never hints in the least that these Christians are worshiping (as a god) a would-be Jewish revolutionary". What I'm saying is that, as far as I know, Jesus was never accused of being a would-be Jewish revolutionary by pagans, Jews or Christians. I agree that a case could be made that that was exactly what Jesus was, and people have made that case in more modern times. But no-one made the case back then as far as I know.
hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

The character called Christ in the Pliny letter to Trajan does not refer to NT Jesus of Nazareth. Writings of Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius all state that the prophesied Jewish Messianic ruler was expected by Jews around c 66 CE and that the Messiah was in fact Vespasian..

Historians also admit that Simon Barchocheba was believed to be the Jewish Messiah c 133 CE after the Jews defeated the Romans.

There are no historical writings anywhere that Jesus of Nazareth with the Jews defeated the Romans at any time.

The Pliny letter to Trajan is evidence that the supposed Christian cult was a recent development in the second century c 113 CE..

Pliny the younger actually lived and worked in Rome up to the start of the 2nd century where the Christian cult was supposed to have been established and spreading for at least 5 decades [50 years] by Peter, Paul, Clement, Linus, Cletus and others.

In a supposed letter to the Romans, the writer boasted that the faith of the Romans was known throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Ignatius, a bishop of the Church, was allegedly fed to lions or burnt to death in Rome yet Pliny had no idea what Christians believed.

Pliny had to torture supposed Christians to find out what they believed.

Pliny’s Letter to Trajan
Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition…

.

Christianity was a recent cult in the time of Pliny and was not yet known in Rome.
Aleph One
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Aleph One »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:37 pm Philo's Logos also has a solar aspect. His name after all is 'the rising.' "Behold a man (anthrőpos) whose name is the rising (anatole)" ἀνατολή = sunrise.
+1 My first thought as well. Interesting...I might try to look into whether a pre-sunrise service was a known component of other religious sects or groups at the time (and I see now that Ken mentioned exactly that regarding Josephus's Essenes).
hakeem wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:55 am Christianity was a recent cult in the time of Pliny and was not yet known in Rome.
But doesn't Trajan's reply suggest some familiarity with the sect already? Or you mean the letter was really about another group and has been interpolated to back-date Christianity?
hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:55 am Christianity was a recent cult in the time of Pliny and was not yet known in Rome.
Aleph One wrote:But doesn't Trajan's reply suggest some familiarity with the sect already? Or you mean the letter was really about another group and has been interpolated to back-date Christianity?
Which sect are you referring to? Christian writer themselves admitted that there were multiple sect of Christians. It was not necessary for Jesus of Nazareth to have existed for people to be called Christians. According to Justin people who worshiped Simon Magus as a God were called Christians.

The followers of Menander, Valentinus, Basilides, Marcus and Saturnilus were also called Christians and these Christian cults would have existed in the time of Pliny the younger.

Justin's First Apology XXVI
All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians

It is a myth that Christian sects in antiquity only referred to followers or believers in the NT Jesus stories.

In any event, there was no Jewish Christ called Jesus of Nazareth up to the time of Pliny the younger as documented in the historical writings of Josephus, Suetonius and Tacitus.

The cult of Christians who worshiped a character called Jesus of Nazareth as a God were very late and after the Pliny letter to Trajan.

According to Christian writers, Peter was preaching about Jesus of Nazareth in Bithynia since at least 45 CE and in Rome for 25 years up to the 14th year of Nero.

It is simply implausible that Pliny who was an Imperial Magistrate in Rome for some time would not have known what Christians believed if the sect were believers in NT Jesus stories.
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