Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Aleph One
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Aleph One »

hakeem wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:46 am
Aleph One wrote:But doesn't Trajan's reply suggest some familiarity with the sect already? Or you mean the letter was really about another group and has been interpolated to back-date Christianity?
Which sect are you referring to? Christian writer themselves admitted that there were multiple sect of Christians. It was not necessary for Jesus of Nazareth to have existed for people to be called Christians. According to Justin people who worshiped Simon Magus as a God were called Christians.
hakeem wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:46 amAccording to Christian writers, Peter was preaching about Jesus of Nazareth in Bithynia since at least 45 CE and in Rome for 25 years up to the 14th year of Nero.

It is simply implausible that Pliny who was an Imperial Magistrate in Rome for some time would not have known what Christians believed if the sect were believers in NT Jesus stories.
Ahhh ok, thanks. I don't have much objection to any of that, I just wasn't sure how exactly you meant it. I agree that the canon timeline for the Church's expansion throughout the Empire (as seen in Acts) is highly suspect.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by andrewcriddle »

I posted here a suggestion of partial interpolation in Pliny's letter.

Andrew Criddle
rgprice
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by rgprice »

Bernard Muller wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:04 am to rgprice,
He, and apparently Trajan, had never heard of Christians before.
And how did you figure that out?

Cordially, Bernard
Well Pliny had clearly never heard of them before. Trajan gives no indication that he knew anything about them either. Trajan's reply is more ambiguous and neutral, but he certainly provides no evidence that he had knowledge of them.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by GakuseiDon »

rgprice wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:40 pmWell Pliny had clearly never heard of them before. Trajan gives no indication that he knew anything about them either. Trajan's reply is more ambiguous and neutral, but he certainly provides no evidence that he had knowledge of them.
Pliny the Younger never actually states that he hadn't heard of Christianity though. He only writes that he'd never participated in trials of Christians before. He's asking the Emperor whether to take age or repentance into account when conducting his trials:

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Some of the people Pliny refers to had been Christians up to 25 years earlier. But it's clear that Pliny also didn't know much, if anything, about Christianity.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rgprice,
Well Pliny had clearly never heard of them before.
What Pliny never heard before is who, and how to punish Christians:
I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished
Trajan gives no indication that he knew anything about them either.
Argument from silence.
And why Trajan should give indication he knew about Christians? His answer to Pliny is about what he was concerned with: who, and how to punish Christians.

And you must have rejected for whatever reason Tacitus in Annals describing Nero persecution of Christians and Suetonius' mention of it, with part of Tacitus' description being paraphased and condensed by Sulpitius Severus (c. 363 – c. 425) Sacred History 2 .29
And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote:What Pliny never heard before is who, and how to punish Christians:
If Pliny did not how to punish Christians then why did he execute those who confessed they were Christians?
Pliny had already executed Christians before the letter was written.

Pliny to Trajan
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished.

rgprice
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by rgprice »

Yeah, I can see that now. It appears that he didn't know much about Christians, as opposed to having never heard of them at all. And I see that his comment about the trials of Christians implies that other trials of Christians had been performed prior to this, so their identification as a group would have already been recognized.
Aleph One
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Aleph One »

hakeem wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:20 pm
Bernard Muller wrote:What Pliny never heard before is who, and how to punish Christians:
If Pliny did not how to punish Christians then why did he execute those who confessed they were Christians?
Pliny had already executed Christians before the letter was written.

Pliny to Trajan
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished.

So what is even the crime here? Violating Trajan's ban on secret societies? It comes off as crazy extreme to execute people for something you barely even know about.
hakeem
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by hakeem »

The more one reads the Pliny letter to Trajan the more it does not make sense.

1. Pliny first executed all those who admitted they were presently Christians except Roman citizens.
2. The Roman citizens who admitted they were Christians were sent to Rome for trial.
3. Some of remaining persons claimed that they were never Christians, cursed Christ, worshiped the statue of Trajan and were released.
4. Pliny then tortured some of others to find out what they believed when they were Christians.

It makes no sense whatsoever for Pliny to have executed Christians if he did know what punishment they deserved and then to torture non-Christians who cursed Christ and worship the statue of Trajan to find out what Christians believed up to 25 years earlier.

In effect, Pliny is writing to Trajan to find out what to do with people who denied that they were Christians and who worshiped Trajan as a God for up to 25 years.

Pliny letter to Trajan
Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Buried clues about early Christianity from the context of Pliny’s letters?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
If Pliny did not how to punish Christians then why did he execute those who confessed they were Christians?
Pliny had already executed Christians before the letter was written.
Well, Trajan was not a phone call away. Communications between Trajan and Pliny on his road trip would take weeks. So Pliny had to decide on his own on how to deal with Christians in that city.

Cordially, Bernard
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