The start of the Jesus story

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

Post by Peter Kirby »

hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:52 am Once the writings of Josephus are examined it is easily seen that gMark was fabricated after c 94 CE or at least after the writings of Antiquities of the Jews written in the 13th year of Domitian.

The Gospel called according to Mark contains characters and events that are only found in the writings of Josephus and specifically only in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews.
To carry the argument, it would need to be shown that Josephus invented these "characters and events."
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Jax
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:03 am
hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:52 am Once the writings of Josephus are examined it is easily seen that gMark was fabricated after c 94 CE or at least after the writings of Antiquities of the Jews written in the 13th year of Domitian.

The Gospel called according to Mark contains characters and events that are only found in the writings of Josephus and specifically only in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews.
To carry the argument, it would need to be shown that Josephus invented these "characters and events."
Your point is well taken, however, it is pretty convenient that everything derives from one chapter as pointed out by hakeem.
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:11 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:03 am
hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:52 am Once the writings of Josephus are examined it is easily seen that gMark was fabricated after c 94 CE or at least after the writings of Antiquities of the Jews written in the 13th year of Domitian.

The Gospel called according to Mark contains characters and events that are only found in the writings of Josephus and specifically only in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews.
To carry the argument, it would need to be shown that Josephus invented these "characters and events."
Your point is well taken, however, it is pretty convenient that everything derives from one chapter as pointed out by hakeem.
It's because of the weakness of his argument that it all "derives" from one book.

"Everything" is the death of John the Baptist, plus the existence of Pilate, et al.

gMark Antiquities of the Jews 18
MK 15.1 Pilate
MK 1.6 John the Baptist
MK 6 The killing of John the Baptist by Herod
MK 6 Herod
MK 6 Herodias
MK 6 The daughter of Herodias
MK 6 Philip the brother of Herod
MK 6 The wife of Philip
AJ 18.3.1 --Pilate
AJ 18.5.2 John the Baptist
AJ 18.5.2 The killing of John the Baptist by Herod
AJ 18.2.1 Herod
AJ 18.5.1 Herodias
AJ 18.5.4 The daughter of Herodias
AJ 18.5. 4 Philip the brother of Herod
AJ 18.5.4 The wife of Philip
MK 6:20
For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him…
AJ 18.5.2 Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion..
Mark 6:25
And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
AJ 18.5.1 So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head.

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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:13 am
Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:11 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:03 am
hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:52 am Once the writings of Josephus are examined it is easily seen that gMark was fabricated after c 94 CE or at least after the writings of Antiquities of the Jews written in the 13th year of Domitian.

The Gospel called according to Mark contains characters and events that are only found in the writings of Josephus and specifically only in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews.
To carry the argument, it would need to be shown that Josephus invented these "characters and events."
Your point is well taken, however, it is pretty convenient that everything derives from one chapter as pointed out by hakeem.
It's because of the weakness of his argument that it all "derives" from one book.

"Everything" is the death of John the Baptist, plus the existence of Pilate, et al.

gMark Antiquities of the Jews 18
MK 15.1 Pilate
MK 1.6 John the Baptist
MK 6 The killing of John the Baptist by Herod
MK 6 Herod
MK 6 Herodias
MK 6 The daughter of Herodias
MK 6 Philip the brother of Herod
MK 6 The wife of Philip
AJ 18.3.1 --Pilate
AJ 18.5.2 John the Baptist
AJ 18.5.2 The killing of John the Baptist by Herod
AJ 18.2.1 Herod
AJ 18.5.1 Herodias
AJ 18.5.4 The daughter of Herodias
AJ 18.5. 4 Philip the brother of Herod
AJ 18.5.4 The wife of Philip
MK 6:20
For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him…
AJ 18.5.2 Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion..
Mark 6:25
And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
AJ 18.5.1 So Herod wrote about these affairs to Tiberius, who being very angry at the attempt made by Aretas, wrote to Vitellius to make war upon him, and either to take him alive, and bring him to him in bonds, or to kill him, and send him his head.

Yeah. I try to avoid absolute statements myself.
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:51 am Yeah. I try to avoid absolute statements myself.
What does that mean?
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:54 am
Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:51 am Yeah. I try to avoid absolute statements myself.
What does that mean?
Am I mistaken that you are taking hakeem to task over making absolute statements?
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:15 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:54 am
Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:51 am Yeah. I try to avoid absolute statements myself.
What does that mean?
Am I mistaken that you are taking hakeem to task over making absolute statements?
I think you are mistaken. I am not sure what you consider an absolute statement to be. It had not crossed my mind.
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Anyone who has access to the works of Josephus will see that the story of John the Baptist's baptising people and his death are only found in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews which was copied by the authors of the Gospels.

The author of gMark used the story of John the Baptist in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews to help "historicise" the fiction character called Jesus of Nazareth.

Mark [Antiquities of the Jews 18]
Mk 1.4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
A J 18.5. 2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist:

for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body;


supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.

It was the authors of the Gospels who needed the works of Josephus to make it appear that their story of Jesus being baptised by John the Baptist was an historical event.
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:20 am
Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:15 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:54 am
Jax wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:51 am Yeah. I try to avoid absolute statements myself.
What does that mean?
Am I mistaken that you are taking hakeem to task over making absolute statements?
I think you are mistaken. I am not sure what you consider an absolute statement to be. It had not crossed my mind.
Ah! My mistake. Sorry.
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Re: The start of the Jesus story

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hakeem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:30 am The author of gMark used the story of John the Baptist in the 18th book of Antiquities of the Jews to help "historicise" the fiction character called Jesus of Nazareth.
You haven't shown this.
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