Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

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Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Giuseppe »

Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:56 am
Actually, since the charge of these false witnesses is rejected, that implies Jesus never made that prophecy.
Now I learn what you mean: Mark denied that accusation, while Luke claimed the truth of the accusation.

Is not more simple, than the assumption that Mark and Luke disagreed on a such topic, to assume rather that Luke preceded Mark and both agreed that Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple ?
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Giuseppe,
Now I learn what you mean: Mark denied that accusation, while Luke claimed the truth of the accusation.
gLuke never has Jesus making the prophesy of ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”
Yes "Luke" has Jesus foretelling of the destruction of the temple (in 21:6), but not that he will destroy it. And Lk 21:6 is "copied" from gMark which also has Jesus making the same prophecy (see Mk 13:2).

Cordially, Bernard
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Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Giuseppe »

Mark 13:2

“Do you see all these great buildings?”

Mcn has probably the imperative form:

See all these great buildings!


It is difficult to infer some conclusion from this, effectively. Mark could have transformed the original imperative form of Mcn in a question, to mitigate the polemical attack against the Temple.
  • The form of question appears to raise the possibility that for Jesus the destruction of the Temple is not necessary: the presence of the Temple doesn't prevent someone from seeing the greatness of Jesus.
  • The imperative form appears to raise the possibility that for Jesus the Temple is an obstacle: his destruction is necessary to make it visible the greatness of Jesus.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Giuseppe »

What, Bernard, about the Parable of Wineskins?

Can you think that the opposition new versus old doesn't refer to a new Testament as opposed to an old Testament? And we know that Marcion was the first to introduce a such terminology ("Testamentum") referred to writings.
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Giuseppe,
What, Bernard, about the Parable of Wineskins?
Can you think that the opposition new versus old doesn't refer to a new Testament as opposed to an old Testament? And we know that Marcion was the first to introduce a such terminology ("Testamentum") referred to writings.
I already answered that:
I don't see what you mean. The parable of the wineskins appears in Luke and Mark. As for Marcion's version, we cannot be sure on how Marcion wrote it.

Where did you find out Marcion used "Testamentum" referring to writings? Furthermore "Testamentum" is Latin but Marcion wrote in Greek.

Cordially, Bernard
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Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

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Bernard Muller wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:40 pm Where did you find out Marcion used "Testamentum" referring to writings?

From all of this one can only draw the same conclusion with regard to Irenaeus that Wolfram Kinzig already made in his study of the use of testamentum in Tertullian: Only when he speaks of Markion and his position does the reporter fall into the language of the one about whom he reports and speaks of a "testament" in the technical sense as a collection of writings.

https://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2018 ... s-bei.html
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Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Giuseppe »

The book will arrive next saturday, probably.

In whiletime, before my view of things can be modified radically after the reading of the book, I want to put well in evidence what I disagree strongly with, i.e. this Roth's claims:


Dieter Roth, The Text of Marcion’s Gospel, page 81: 81 It is crucial to recognize that in this approach to reconstructing Marcion’s Gospel text, Marcion’s theological tendencies will not be invoked in the evaluation of a source’s testimony. Thus, I am consciously embracing and agreeing with Schmid’s perspective when he wrote, “I would prefer to see appeals to Marcionite tendency banned from any serious reconstruction of the Marcionite text. We need to first of all screen our sources for the Marcionite text against themselves in order to better understand their theological agendas and rhetorical strategies.”

This quote is a mix of hypocrisy, false moralism and ignorance, in my view. Even a blind realizes that the Parable of Wineskins or the Parable of the Lamp is pure marcionism, one of the reasons to accuse Luke as a blatant corruption of Mcn (since both have these two parables).

Hence I am absolutely titled to put Mark against Mcn and Mcn against Mark, since also Mark has the Parable of Wineskins and the Parable of Lamp.
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by lsayre »

Could it be that the (so called) Gospel of Mark is either:

1) An early version of the (so called) Gospel of Marcion.
2) An intentionally stripped down version of the Gospel of Marcion.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Giuseppe »

lsayre wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:04 am Could it be that the (so called) Gospel of Mark is either:

1) An early version of the (so called) Gospel of Marcion.
This view, argued in past by Hermann Raschke (of which I have read partially the book), is crank, sic et simpliciter. It is too much evident that "Mark" (author) adores YHWH as supreme god. Nowhere in this Gospel there is a reference to an alien god.

lsayre wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:04 am 2) An intentionally stripped down version of the Gospel of Marcion.
I will read the Klinghardt's book precisely because I am curious to see what are his arguments to have Mark written against the Marcion's Gospel, given already my assumption that Mcn preceded Luke beyond any doubt.
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Re: Marcion versus Mark: who comes first?

Post by Giuseppe »

The two volumes are arrived even before saturday.

From a first reading of p. 219, what appears to be a strong argument for Mcn priority over Mark is an Argument from Extreme Inprobability of a Destruction of a Too Much Elaborate Composition.

Paradoxically, just the reason many fans of Mark's priority think that Mark is first, i.e. his being too much perfect (from a literary construction) to be copied from a previous Gospel, would figure as the principal reason for Mark being hardly used by Marcion et alia, because otherwise the latter would have broken that mirable costruction found in Mark.
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