Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:25 am
Charles Wilson wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:02 amWithout an existing Jesus, the entire Q argument falls apart.
This, too, is incorrect. (Earl Doherty famously argued that Kloppenborg's layering of Q was an argument
against an historical Jesus. Whether he is right or wrong is a matter for discussion, obviously, but one may certainly imagine Q as existing while Jesus did not.)
For the Record, I agree with you. My Logical Point, however, was something different. If I was that artistically inclined, I could draw a comic book, "The Continuing Adventures of Jesus" and it wouldn't matter if "Jesus" existed or not. Judaism demanded that no representations of People be allowed. Pompey looked in the Holy of Holies and found nothing to "See". OK, OK. Here, "Sayings" replace "Images".
The point is that if a "Q" Document existed, it existed in a manner similar to my non-existent comic book. It was a manufactured document. The study of such a posited document, beyond the bare listing of its current found content, is for Historical Curiosity.
The idol, rendered in stone, is not the god/goddess but the representation. Try telling that, however to a Naram-Sin.
"The Sayings of Jesus" may point to material in Matthew and Luke not found in Mark. Existence is not a predicate. If "Jesus" did not exist, then the study of such a posited document is the study of a manufactured document, with all that entails. To put it perhaps too bluntly, It was either manufactured from whole cloth or was rewritten from source Documents which might not originally have had anything to do with a "Jesus" character.
My own view may be changing. If "Q" existed, it was probably an Intermediate Document, marking a revision of an Original Story, rewriting the Intent of the Story into the story of the New! Improved! savior-god, familiar to Roman Sensibilities. I could then see that a "Q" existed. It would make a difference if a "Jesus" character then existed and that actual mouthed words of the sort came from his mouth.
I remain skeptical of that.
Best to you,
CW