Canonical Paul, Acts, and Justin VS Paul, Valentinus, and Marcion

[Peter Kirby]

Tertullian...says that the Valentinians believed there was a "higher Christ who was stretched on Cross, otherwise known as Horos" - the Cross which marked the boundary of the Pleroma, above the seven heavens, above the Demiurge, and above Achamoth (the female being abandoned by Sophia, the last aeon, whose suffering and longing brought forth the world and its demiurge).

.
Following the analogy of the first Tetrad, they crowd him with four substances: (i) the spirit-like from Achamoth, (ii) the soul-like from the Demiurge, (iii) the bodily which is indescribable, and (iv) the substance from Saviour, namely dove-like. Saviour at any rate remained in Christ untouched, unhurt, unknown.

Finally, when captured, he left him during Pilate's questioning. Likewise, the seed from his mother did not receive injury, being equally, immune and unknown even to the Demiurge.

The soul-like and bodily Christ suffered to illustrate the experience of the higher Christ who was stretched on Cross, otherwise known as Horos, when he shaped Achamoth in essence, though not in intelligible form.

In such a way everything becomes an illustration or image; even, obviously, these Christians themselves are imaginary.
.

Interesting that Pilate gets a mention in a reference to the Valentianian Saviour and as influencing the entities therein ...

I read it as indicating that Jesus was abandoned by the spirit of the higher Christ before any of the sufferings of the passion ("did not receive injury" - explicitly what the Valentinians seem to be concerned with). Leaving the spirit while on the cross itself would be different and is denied. I suppose they could find this as an interpretation of the texts: after the dialogue with Pilate, the next words of Jesus (in the Gospel of Mark) are about being abandoned, allowing that the spirit could have departed immediately after the dialogue with Pilate.

[Peter Kirby]

Not just Horos in the Valentianian system but [sometimes, at least] Horos-Stauros, with Stauros being a god and stauros being the Greek word meaning cross and manifestations of it meaning crucifixion.

Correct, Horos means "Limiter" and Stauros means "Cross." They're both important names, and it explains the character of the Cross (Stauros) in the apocrypha.

The idea of a limit of the heavens that is a cross goes back to Plato, who sees in the cross of the solar and planetary orbits the Greek letter Chi ("X").

[MrMacSon]

I read it as indicating that Jesus was abandoned by the spirit of the higher Christ before any of the sufferings of the passion ("did not receive injury" - explicitly what the Valentinians seem to be concerned with).

• Yes, I thought the same.

Leaving the spirit while on the cross itself would be different and is denied. I suppose they could find this as an interpretation of the texts: after the dialogue with Pilate, the next words of Jesus (in the Gospel of Mark) are about being abandoned, allowing that the spirit could have departed immediately after the dialogue with Pilate.

• Good points (which I hadn't thought of)

[MrMacSon]

Not just Horos in the Valentianian system but [sometimes, at least] Horos-Stauros, with Stauros being a god and stauros being the Greek word meaning cross and manifestations of it meaning crucifixion.

Correct, Horos means "Limiter" and Stauros means "Cross." They're both important names, and it explains the character of the Cross (Stauros) in the apocrypha.

They have fluid meanings, especially Stauros/stauros. Such ambiguity—semantic and type-token—might have been both useful and meaningful.

The idea of a limit of the heavens that is a cross goes back to Plato, who sees in the cross of the solar and planetary orbits the Greek letter Chi ("X").

Yes something Justin Martyr refers to in his First Apol. 60 -

And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timoeus of Plato, where he says, "He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses [though Justin them misrepresents Moses]

Later in the same chapter 60, where Justin misrepresents Plato, -

Which things Plato reading, and not accurately understanding, and not apprehending that it was the figure of the cross, but taking it to be a placing crosswise, he said that the power next to the first God was placed crosswise in the universe. And as to his speaking of a third, he did this because he read, as we said above, that which was spoken by Moses, "that the Spirit of God moved over the waters." For he gives the second place to the Logos which is with God, who he said was placed crosswise in the universe; and the third place to the Spirit who was said to be borne upon the water, saying, "And the third around the third."

[MrMacSon]

There also this passage from Plato's Republic, bk II, 361-2:

“ those who commend injustice above justice...will say is this: that such being his disposition the just man will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after all manner of suffering, he will be crucified, and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire ... ”

• though I don't think any of the Christian texts—gospels, epistles, or Father's commentaries or the like—allude to it.

[Peter Kirby]

There also this passage from Plato's Republic, bk II, 361-2:

“ those who commend injustice above justice...will say is this: that such being his disposition the just man will have to endure the lash, the rack, chains, the branding-iron in his eyes, and finally, after all manner of suffering, he will be crucified, and so will learn his lesson that not to be but to seem just is what we ought to desire ... ”

• though I don't think any of the Christian texts—gospels, epistles, or Father's commentaries or the like—allude to it.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.14

Is it not similar to Scripture when it says, "Let us remove the righteous man from us, because he is troublesome to us?" when Plato, all but predicting the economy of salvation, says in the second book of the Republic as follows: "Thus he who is constituted just shall be scourged, shall be stretched on the rack, shall be bound, have his eyes put out; and at last, having suffered all evils, shall be crucified."

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 4.7

Such also are the words of Plato in the Republic: "The just man, though stretched on the rack, though his eyes are dug out, will be happy." The Gnostic will never then have the chief end placed in life, but in being always happy and blessed, and a kingly friend of God. Although visited with ignominy and exile, and confiscation, and above all, death, he will never be wrenched from his freedom, and signal love to God.

Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica 12.10

'We must strip him then of everything except justice, and make his condition the reverse of the former. Though never doing wrong, he must have the reputation of the worst wrongdoing, that his justice may be strictly tested by his being proof against infamy, and its consequences: and he must be immovably steadfast even unto death, being in reality just but "with a life-long reputation for injustice." '

And soon after he adds:

'Let me therefore describe it; and so, Socrates, if my speech be somewhat coarse, imagine the speaker to be not me, but those who praise injustice above justice. And they will tell you as follows, that in these circumstances the just man will be scourged, racked, fettered, will have both eyes torn out, and at last after suffering every kind of torture he will be crucified, and will learn that a man should wish not to be, but to seem, just.'

Such is Plato's description in words, but the righteous men and prophets among the Hebrews are recorded long before to have suffered in deed all that he describes. For though most just, yet as if the most unjust, 'they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, they were slain with the sword, they wandered about in sheep-skins and goat-skins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented,... wandering in deserts, and mountains, and caves, and the holes of the earth, of whom the world was not worthy.' 30

The Apostles also of our Saviour, though following the highest path of justice and piety, were by the multitude involved in the reputation of injustice, and what they suffered we may learn from themselves when they say, 'We are made a spectacle unto the world, both to angels and to men 31 . . . And even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling-place: 32 . . . being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world.'

Nay, even unto this present time the noble witnesses of our Saviour throughout all man's habitable world, while exercising themselves 'not to seem but to be' both just and pious, have endured all the sufferings which Plato enumerated: for they were both scourged, and endured bonds and racks, and even had their eyes torn out, and at last after suffering all terrible tortures they were crucified. None like them will you find by any searching among the Greeks, so that one may naturally say that the philosopher did no less than prophesy in these words concerning those who among us were distinguished in piety and true righteousness.

[MrMacSon]

There also this passage from Plato's Republic, bk II, 361-2
... though I don't think any of the Christian texts—gospels, epistles, or Father's commentaries or the like—allude to it.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 4.7

Such also are the words of Plato in the Republic: "The just man, though stretched on the rack, though his eyes are dug out, will be happy." The Gnostic will never then have the chief end placed in life, but in being always happy and blessed, and a kingly friend of God. Although visited with ignominy and exile, and confiscation, and above all, death, he will never be wrenched from his freedom, and signal love to God.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 5.14

Is it not similar to Scripture when it says, "Let us remove the righteous man from us, because he is troublesome to us?" when Plato, all but predicting the economy of salvation, says in the second book of the Republic as follows: "Thus he who is constituted just shall be scourged, shall be stretched on the rack, shall be bound, have his eyes put out; and at last, having suffered all evils, shall be crucified."

Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica 12.10

.' We must strip him then of everything except justice, and make his condition the reverse of the former. Though never doing wrong, he must have the reputation of the worst wrongdoing, that his justice may be strictly tested by his being proof against infamy, and its consequences: and he must be immovably steadfast even unto death, being in reality just but "with a life-long reputation for injustice." '

And soon after he adds:

'Let me therefore describe it; and so, Socrates, if my speech be somewhat coarse, imagine the speaker to be not me, but those who praise injustice above justice. And they will tell you as follows, that in these circumstances the just man will be scourged, racked, fettered, will have both eyes torn out, and at last after suffering every kind of torture he will be crucified, and will learn that a man should wish not to be, but to seem, just.'

Such is Plato's description in words, but the righteous men and prophets among the Hebrews are recorded long before to have suffered in deed all that he describes. For though most just, yet as if the most unjust, 'they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, they were slain with the sword, they wandered about in sheep-skins and goat-skins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented,... wandering in deserts, and mountains, and caves, and the holes of the earth, of whom the world was not worthy.'

The Apostles also of our Saviour, though following the highest path of justice and piety, were by the multitude involved in the reputation of injustice, and what they suffered we may learn from themselves when they say, 'We are made a spectacle unto the world, both to angels and to men . . . And even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling-place: . . . being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world.'

Nay, even unto this present time the noble witnesses of our Saviour throughout all man's habitable world, while exercising themselves 'not to seem but to be' both just and pious, have endured all the sufferings which Plato enumerated: for they were both scourged, and endured bonds and racks, and even had their eyes torn out, and at last after suffering all terrible tortures they were crucified. None like them will you find by any searching among the Greeks, so that one may naturally say that the philosopher did no less than prophesy in these words concerning those who among us were distinguished in piety and true righteousness.

Well, well, well. Thank you very much, Peter

[Jax]

Not just Horos in the Valentianian system but [sometimes, at least] Horos-Stauros, with Stauros being a god and stauros being the Greek word meaning cross and manifestations of it meaning crucifixion.

Correct, Horos means "Limiter" and Stauros means "Cross." They're both important names, and it explains the character of the Cross (Stauros) in the apocrypha.

The idea of a limit of the heavens that is a cross goes back to Plato, who sees in the cross of the solar and planetary orbits the Greek letter Chi ("X").

Hey Peter, do you know offhand how the character of the cross was rendered in the apocrypha? Did they use the word stauros or did they use the letter Chi?

[robert j]

The idea of a limit of the heavens that is a cross goes back to Plato, who sees in the cross of the solar and planetary orbits the Greek letter Chi ("X").

Plato's 'Chi-in-the-sky' is probably the seasonal intersection of the zodiacal light with the milky way.

The zodiacal light is so-named because it occurs along the plane of the ecliptic, that is, approximately the plane on which the planets orbit around the sun. The zodiacal light is not a familiar sight to most modern people for a variety of reasons, but light pollution is certainly a factor. The zodiacal light —- interplanetary dust illuminated by the sun —- is best visible in mid to mid-southern latitudes, and only in the spring and autumn and only for a period of time before dawn or after sunset, depending on the season.

For many ancients that spent much more time under very dark skies --- especially astrologers, mystics, diviners, and goat herders --- the phenomenon would have been quite well known.

At the times when the zodiacal light happens to intersect with the Milky Way, a giant “X” is visible across the sky. This is most likely the celestial X that Plato was referring to in his Timaeus. Here’s a decent article that presents that point of view, and even includes a photograph of the phenomenon (scroll down the page for the article) ---

“Plato’s Cosmic X: Heavenly Gates at the Celestial Crossroads”
https://www.academia.edu/1536305/Platos ... Crossroads

[Peter Kirby]

Not just Horos in the Valentianian system but [sometimes, at least] Horos-Stauros, with Stauros being a god and stauros being the Greek word meaning cross and manifestations of it meaning crucifixion.

Correct, Horos means "Limiter" and Stauros means "Cross." They're both important names, and it explains the character of the Cross (Stauros) in the apocrypha.

The idea of a limit of the heavens that is a cross goes back to Plato, who sees in the cross of the solar and planetary orbits the Greek letter Chi ("X").

Hey Peter, do you know offhand how the character of the cross was rendered in the apocrypha? Did they use the word stauros or did they use the letter Chi?

Swete's Greek text of gPeter has stauros.

IIRC, some of the Nag Hammadi Coptic texts treat the word for cross as one of the "nomina sacra" (with abbreviation).

The Greek letter Tau seems like it was more closely associated with the Christian cross:

Epistle of Barnabas

For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his household
eighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledge
given unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first,
and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I'
stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). And
because the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also three
hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the
remaining one the cross.