Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Jax
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Aleph One wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:46 pm
Jax wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:31 pmI don't remember anything about secret clubs in the account just an prohibition against gatherings of any kind.
In an earlier letter in the same collection (Trajan to Pliny Letter 43) Trajan says in response to Pliny's request for permission to create an official fire department (of a sort):
Trajan wrote:YOU are of opinion it would be proper to establish a company of firemen in Nicomedia, agreeably to what has been practiced in several other cities. But it is to be remembered that societies of this sort have greatly disturbed the peace of the province in general, and of those cities in particular. Whatever name we give them, and for whatever purposes them may be founded, they will not fail to form themselves into factious, assemblies, however short their meetings may be. It will therefore be safer to provide such machines as are of service in extinguishing fires, enjoining the owners of houses to assist in preventing the mischief from spreading, and, if it should be necessary, to call in the aid of the populace.
From what I've read he uses the same word for "club" as he uses to describe the Christians', so that's why it is thought to be a specific prohibition on (secret?) societies.
I think that you are finding 'secret societies' where none are actually present in the text.

It's tempting for Christians to interpret things to find proofs of Roman persecution of Christians but this is not one of them IMO.
Aleph One
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Jax wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:08 amIn any household of Romans that the Roman authorities wanted information about, they would torture the slaves in that household for the information as Roman citizens were exempt from such practices. This tells us that the Christians with these Διακονοις were probably Roman households, or at least citizens of Rome, and the fact that Pliny is sending some of them to Rome for further processing is more proof of this in my opinion.
Ah yes this makes sense!
Secret Alias
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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How about adding that early Christianity resembled Mithraism as an indisputable historical fact?
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:42 am How about adding that early Christianity resembled Mithraism as an indisputable historical fact?
We learn that the rituals were similar enough from Justin Martyr.
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Jax
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Secret Alias wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:42 am How about adding that early Christianity resembled Mithraism as an indisputable historical fact?
I would also add the cult of Serapis/Isis to that list.
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Jax
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:02 am
Secret Alias wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:42 am How about adding that early Christianity resembled Mithraism as an indisputable historical fact?
We learn that the rituals were similar enough from Justin Martyr.
I wonder, what can we say factually about Justin Martyr?
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Jax wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:28 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:02 am
Secret Alias wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:42 am How about adding that early Christianity resembled Mithraism as an indisputable historical fact?
We learn that the rituals were similar enough from Justin Martyr.
I wonder, what can we say factually about Justin Martyr?
I'm not a huge fan of the "facts" / "factually" terminology here because it encourages unnecessarily reductive answers.

I would suggest common authorship of the Dialogue / First Apology / Second Apology and coming before Irenaeus.
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Also Celsus's observations that Christianity had a lot of sectarian conflict. If Celsus was doing first hand reporting then that much is true. But if Celsus was just taking Irenaeus's word for it (which I suspect is true) then a more challenging statement.
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Jax
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:10 pm
Jax wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:28 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:02 am
Secret Alias wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:42 am How about adding that early Christianity resembled Mithraism as an indisputable historical fact?
We learn that the rituals were similar enough from Justin Martyr.
I wonder, what can we say factually about Justin Martyr?
I'm not a huge fan of the "facts" / "factually" terminology here because it encourages unnecessarily reductive answers.

I would suggest common authorship of the Dialogue / First Apology / Second Apology and coming before Irenaeus.
I am trying to get as close to the original texts attributed to Justin Martyr as I can, do you know of any links to actual early copies in the original language? I hope to locate something that might show what if any Nomina Sacra these texts might contain.

Thanks

Lane
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Re: Indisputable Historical Facts About Early Christianity

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Almost guarantee IC, XC etc
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