"Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Charles Wilson »

lsayre wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:07 am...why would a dominant power/people whom had effectively destroyed another people and flattened their temple, the core of their religion, find it necessary to intricately and secretly weave for them a new religion intended to supplant and uproot and replace that of those recently conquered and effectively enslaved?
I might get into that a lot more later but, as you know, what I have tried to do is follow the Trail that was left for whatever reason.
I may come back to my Thread here in a minute but for now, John may help with the question you ask:

John 11: 46 - 53 (RSV):

[46] but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done.
[47] So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council, and said, "What are we to do? For this man performs many signs.
[48] If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation."
[49] But one of them, Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all;
[50] you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."
[51] He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation,
[52] and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
[53] So from that day on they took counsel how to put him to death.

Here is the Program, from the Jewish POV. The Roman Empire, formerly a bit more Collegial, is about to do just what you assert. The FEAR is given in verses 46 - 48. The Jews are given a choice: Accept this imposition of the savior/god story or face destruction and annihilation. The character "Caiaphas" is blunt. "You know nothing at all..." It is EXPEDIENT that what will be imposed should be accepted.

I cannot assert that "Caiaphas" is to be identified with Zakkai but it is very similar reading as Zakkai sets up his School at Yavneh. "Caiaphas" is High Priest, in and among a Group that is seen as Corrupt in the NT. Yet, he has been given the Gift of Prophecy.

Vespasian grants Zakkai his life. Were there strings attached, strings that Zakkai accepted that would force working with a filthy and Unclean Roman, if it guaranteed the continuance of a Modified, more benign Judaism and the continued lives of many?

Judaism was seen as a Threat to the Empire and could not be allowed to succeed. Caligula wants his statue place in the Temple. TONE DEAF to the sensibilities yet aware that there is a Threat. As usual, the Hatred becomes Codified. Enter Nero. Judah must be crushed and the Priesthood destroyed. Only...there is an alternative. A New Religion based on a single Kinder God would replace the unwieldy multiplications of the multi-god pantheon of the Romans. It could even be centered in Rome, under the control of the Empire!!!

"So let a few Jews survive. They would even help in the creation of the New Religion. They must change the face of Judaism but we can oversee that...If they want to live."

I'm getting ahead of myself in the Thread Topic but...Why not?:

Acts 5: 38 - 39 (RSV):

[38] So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;
[39] but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"

Notice that this is REASONED, not aggressive, not assuming that the God of our Fathers will smite the ungodly in a miraculous Show of Righteous Force. I believe that this is a short record of the Zakkai Revolution, the Founding of Rabbinical Judaism. The Empire gets its New Religion. Judaism survives. Historical Win-Win. For the moment.

CW
lsayre
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by lsayre »

Jax wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:34 pm How, I wonder, do you reconcile all of that with a slave cult?
I'm suggesting that it likely began as an evolving slave religion. My conception of "slave" is not by any means as constricted or delimited or 'southern USA slavery colored glasses' envisioned/blinded such as it appears to me that yours may be. Clearly it did not for all time remain strictly a slave religion. But if it did not begin as a slave religion, and I consider all peoples residing under the conquest of Rome to be quite effectively their slaves, then how else might scholars "generally" concede that Christianities roots originated within Judaism?
lsayre
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by lsayre »

Charles Wilson wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:21 pm Here is the Program, from the Jewish POV. The Roman Empire, formerly a bit more Collegial, is about to do just what you assert. The FEAR is given in verses 46 - 48. The Jews are given a choice: Accept this imposition of the savior/god story or face destruction and annihilation. The character "Caiaphas" is blunt. "You know nothing at all..." It is EXPEDIENT that what will be imposed should be accepted.

I cannot assert that "Caiaphas" is to be identified with Zakkai but it is very similar reading as Zakkai sets up his School at Yavneh. "Caiaphas" is High Priest, in and among a Group that is seen as Corrupt in the NT. Yet, he has been given the Gift of Prophecy.

Vespasian grants Zakkai his life. Were there strings attached, strings that Zakkai accepted that would force working with a filthy and Unclean Roman, if it guaranteed the continuance of a Modified, more benign Judaism and the continued lives of many?

Judaism was seen as a Threat to the Empire and could not be allowed to succeed. Caligula wants his statue place in the Temple. TONE DEAF to the sensibilities yet aware that there is a Threat. As usual, the Hatred becomes Codified. Enter Nero. Judah must be crushed and the Priesthood destroyed. Only...there is an alternative. A New Religion based on a single Kinder God would replace the unwieldy multiplications of the multi-god pantheon of the Romans. It could even be centered in Rome, under the control of the Empire!!!

"So let a few Jews survive. They would even help in the creation of the New Religion. They must change the face of Judaism but we can oversee that...If they want to live."

I'm getting ahead of myself in the Thread Topic but...Why not?:

Acts 5: 38 - 39 (RSV):

[38] So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;
[39] but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"

Notice that this is REASONED, not aggressive, not assuming that the God of our Fathers will smite the ungodly in a miraculous Show of Righteous Force. I believe that this is a short record of the Zakkai Revolution, the Founding of Rabbinical Judaism. The Empire gets its New Religion. Judaism survives. Historical Win-Win. For the moment.

CW
You are finally presenting here (in my opinion) something that has potential in support of your thesis. I'm well more intrigued now! But I still can't fathom as to why the Roman's would find it necessary to (so to speak) go to bed with their slaves whereby to compromise with them so as to emerge for themselves a new and more monotheistic national religion. Such could be accomplished without the compromise. An Emperor had the authority to decree it if so desired.
Charles Wilson
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Charles Wilson »

I just lost about 3 dense pages of material. Gone. I'm sick. I'll try to reconstruct it later.

CW
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Jax
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Jax »

Try going backwards in your browser to get back to your post being created. I have to do this every once and a while.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Jax wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:39 am Try going backwards in your browser to get back to your post being created. I have to do this every once and a while.
I have done this, too. Also, for longer posts, I highly recommend typing them up in a text file and saving as one goes along. (I also save many of my posts in text files on my external hard drive.)
Charles Wilson
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Charles Wilson »

I did all of that. Looked in "Drafts" - Nothing. I hit a Mystery Key with my left ring finger and it disappeared.
Things aren't going real swell-like for me today. I'm gonna try to get to the reconstruction later today but I'm kinda' hot around the edges right now. (See Post in other Thread)

I'm not even out of the first chapters of Acts but I've argued for Historical Characteristics for a long time. I can get to Mucianus but it may take awhile and it may take some long Posts.
Thank you for the suggestions.

CW
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Jax
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Jax »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:49 am
Jax wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:39 am Try going backwards in your browser to get back to your post being created. I have to do this every once and a while.
I have done this, too. Also, for longer posts, I highly recommend typing them up in a text file and saving as one goes along. (I also save many of my posts in text files on my external hard drive.)
Wayyyyyyyyyyyy too lazy for all of that. :lol:
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Jax
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Jax »

^Just kidding. I actually do all of the above. Nothing sucks worse than seeing hours or days of work vanish. Poof! :wtf:
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Jax
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Re: "Mucianus" as Template for "Paul"

Post by Jax »

Charles Wilson wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:23 am I did all of that. Looked in "Drafts" - Nothing. I hit a Mystery Key with my left ring finger and it disappeared.
Things aren't going real swell-like for me today. I'm gonna try to get to the reconstruction later today but I'm kinda' hot around the edges right now. (See Post in other Thread)

I'm not even out of the first chapters of Acts but I've argued for Historical Characteristics for a long time. I can get to Mucianus but it may take awhile and it may take some long Posts.
Thank you for the suggestions.

CW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnFNnVHBW9Q
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