Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldliness'?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Secret Alias
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Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldliness'?

Post by Secret Alias »

In another forum I am discussing whether or not the canonical gospels are the original gospels. According to most 'experts' it's obvious. The Church Fathers always cite from these four texts. The Church Fathers are our only sources for information about the gospels. As such it's a no brainer - because we have no information about other gospels from other sources the gospels are original and true. But the presumption here that 'everything that matters' or 'everything that is true' is always written down or spoken about is silly. Sorry it's stupid, idiotic, nonsensical, not worth considering. That's why I go time and again to sex as an example. For most people, sex is all that matters. This isn't true for today as an 'evil generation' - a somehow 'perverted' era or whatever. People have been obsessed about sex since the beginning of time. All we've done is made some 'new wrinkles' for why paying for sex is bad - i.e. the 'exploitation of women' has now replaced the 'sinfulness of sex.'

I will be honest. No one talks about paying for sex because of its criminality. But everyone does it. Everyone with means pays for sex in one way or another. You don't see 'serious books' written about it. For instance, the way I see things work today is as follows:
1. sleazy women get on social media forums (there used to Periscope but I don't know what replaced it). These forums are regulated to prevent prostitution and pornography
2. they give out their Snapchat or other less regulated forums where they can 'conversate' with men
3. men pay for sex or masturbate with these women (or men I guess I am too focused on heterosexuality)
The point is that no one writes or talks about this even now. Before this there were other ways of obtaining sex workers and everyone was doing it. I heard stories last night about my mother in law and her father. They lived in Trinidad but were originally from Venezuela having been collaborators with a brutal dictator and fled to the neighboring island with a ton of cash. Apparently her father left his wife in Caracas and was sleeping with 'black girls' the rest of his life. My mother in law was always embarrassed about the whispers.

For years the mass media the 'official media' was showing wholesome images of families and marriages. Mary Tyler Moore and Dick Van Dyke were sleeping in two separate beds. This complete fake reality was believed by most (at least officially) but secretly people whispered the truth, the truth that everyone was paying for sex. Where is it written, in what journal do you find the truth that 'real sex' (remember that HBO show) is ONLY obtained by money and cash outlay? Like recreational sex, fun sex, whatever you want to call it? This is the truth of the world. All that they fill the universities with is complete bullshit. Married couples don't have sex, they have obligation. Two fat people rubbing sweaty bodies together thinking about recreational sex, fun sex whatever. This is like the gospels. It's at least possible that 'the truth' disappeared and something else - something wholly contrived replaced it. The fact that a lie is perpetuated for centuries isn't remarkable or noteworthy. It happens all the time, it's rule rather than the exception.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Wed May 05, 2021 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: How Things Work

Post by Secret Alias »

The Church held up Christianity as something 'unworldly.' That the Bible isn't like sex and other worldly things. That the process of developing the canon and the tradition of the Church wasn't like prostitution. I think I've always been interested in the possibility that religion is just another worldly institution, another thing governed by worldliness. I think this possibility is first noted by the Dosithean sectarian Sakta "He said that the ark ( m - w -'- y - h ) containing the rolled up Scroll ( m - d - r - j ) in the synagogue is like an overdressed harlot." https://books.google.com/books?id=aM0UA ... AHoECAAQAg

I am saying that when Ben and Ken (has a ring to it) and others strictly focus on Mark, Matthew, Luke and John they essentially have this invented world where the gospels 'other-worldliness' is realized. I mean, Mark, Matthew and Luke are forgeries but 'in a good way.' What good way? Well the gospel is a good book so it could only be forged in a 'good way.' That's the way their arguments inevitably seem. For a normal person a criminal act - forgery - would heighten scrutiny about motives, but not with Ben and Ken. For them, in whatever sense Matthew and Luke were forgeries of Mark it shouldn't be treated as a crime. Why? It reminds me of when celebrities commit felonies and their fans are inevitably open to leniency.

Of course when reference to 'other gospels' are inevitably mentioned THEY become suspects and incredible scrutiny follows. Why? Why are they preserving 'honors' for texts that we know are prostitutes (Mark, Matthew and Luke) but suspicion for new ones. The point is the evil we know is still evil. The unknown text might be evil, might be a whore-text but maybe it isn't. Why the lack of scrutiny for the known cases of forgery? My answer because scholarship breeds lackeys and ass-kissers. It's what the system reinforces. It rewards those who bend over with a smile. It's how the system was designed.
Secret Alias
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by Secret Alias »

In summa: I am saying

1. the world is prostitution including religion.
2. Ben and Ken think the world isn't prostitution nor religion.
3. I hold out hope that a true gospel is possible to be retrieved
4. They say we have the true gospel or a gospel with sufficient truth to be called truthful in some sense.
5. I say nonsense. Beware the wiles of a wicked woman. If you don't know why a whore is saying something, if you don't scrutinize her motives the surface meaning us inevitably a lie. You can't trust a whore.
Secret Alias
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by Secret Alias »

And this is how they get around things. The Bible is just a book. We study the transmission and copying of this book the way that we would any other book No the Bible was not 'just another book.' It was a means of social coercion. That's how it was treated. Look at the Theodosian canons. They had strict rules about anyone using Aquila's translation and sanctioned only the LXX. So this is the 'disinterested state' you'd like to imagine had 'no interest' on how people practiced their religion. Oh, but these legal codes were late. But now you sound like mountainman. Surely the interest of the Roman state over how Judaism and Christianity were governed didn't start with the legal codes of late antiquity. As such it is reasonable to suppose that when Irenaeus was initiating his reforms of various 'heresies' who used different versions of gospels he was promoting his versions of those gospels were corrupt and theirs more authentic. As such, we have little certainty that our 'reformed' gospels or literature are accurate reflections of the original and lost documents.
Secret Alias
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by Secret Alias »

And with respect to the supposedly 'radical' understanding that the world is prostitution. That used to be a Christian position.
Do not associate with πόρνοις. I was not including the πόρνοις of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
So Christians themselves thought that the world was prostitution. My worldview is entirely in keeping with the founding documents of the religion. How then is it so radical to suggest that in a world of whoremongering the Bible was developed according to the principles of whores? This is whole problem with scholarship. We went from:

1. a religion which thought everyone and everything was a whore.
to
2. an organized religion which thought that everyone and everything was a whore except themselves.

If the world is governed by the principles of prostitution so too the gospels.
perseusomega9
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by perseusomega9 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:20 am And this is how they get around things. The Bible is just a book. We study the transmission and copying of this book the way that we would any other book
Ehrman discusses how the TC field is a 'safe space' for evangelicals who want to be scholarly.
perseusomega9
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by perseusomega9 »

perseusomega9 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:58 am
Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:20 am And this is how they get around things. The Bible is just a book. We study the transmission and copying of this book the way that we would any other book
Ehrman discusses how the TC field is a 'safe space' for evangelicals who want to be scholarly.
Which is how we confidently get why passage X cannot be an interpolation because there is no MSS support for such a preposterous and outrageous idea.
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Jax
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by Jax »

"Two fat people rubbing sweaty bodies together thinking about recreational sex, fun sex whatever. This is like the gospels."

I very much look forward to the looks on my uptight Christian friends faces when I tell them this. :lol:
perseusomega9
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Re: Were the Gospels Established by 'Other-Worldly' Means? Do Scholars Need to Defend Their Belief in 'Other-Worldlines

Post by perseusomega9 »

"Reading the bible is like paying for sex" is the start to a good joke, but I can't finish.
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