Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

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Giuseppe
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Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by Giuseppe »

https://www.academia.edu/19284638/The_T ... quities_20

There is a problem of sentence logic which is solved if we take μετὰτοῦτον to mean ‘after in importance or relevance’, rather than ‘after in time’. The translation as it stands is tautological: Gamaliel gives us a dating for the revolt of Judas, which is in the days of the census. Why should he begin with the vague ‘some time ago’ for Theudas, and then be so keen to present the chronology that he says, in relation to Judas, ‘and after this… in the time of the census’. The passage makes more sense if he begins by referring to a recent event which is in everyone’s minds, and then adds to it, as less relevant but still important, an event which he must place more precisely because many of those present will not have been alive at the time it occurred. The Judas example is not only less relevant for being older, but for being a purely political rebellion, as opposed to Theudas who claimed to be some kind of Messiah

We now read:
“Not so long ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and
about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers
were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. Furthermore, in the days of
the census Judas the Galilean appeared and led a band of people in
revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.”


(my bold)


Let us posit for a moment that the Theudas revolt took place in CE 30, not CE 44. This makes it not seven years after the birth of Josephus, but seven years before — a very easy transposition to make for someone describing events that took place when he was too young to remember them.



Is my solution superior to the others? I would argue that it is, and compellingly so. Solutions 1 and 2 — Josephus right/Acts wrong and Acts right/Josephus wrong require us to jettison half of our source material. ... Solution 3 — both are right — requires the manufacture of a new historical figure. ...

Solution 4 — that we have mistranslated ‘meta touton’, and that Josephus got his before/after mixed up when dealing with an oral tradition from his childhood, relies on just one error by one of the authors, rather than a wholesale dismissal of one or a dubious reconciliation which creates as many problems as it solves. It deals with the residual problem of why Luke’s Gamaliel seems so intent on fixing the date of the second event, when he gives only a vague reference to the first event. It is also preferable in that it follows from a closer rather than looser reading of the texts, and reflects the evidenced reliability of the two sources.
We do not need to posit any desire to mislead on the part of Josephus, though it must have been attractive to him to have at least something to write about Fadus, who is otherwise an inactive figure.

The implications are enormous:
  • Theudas slain by Pilate, not by Fadus
  • Theudas defeated by Pilate in the same way the Samaritan false prophet was
  • Theudas resembles too much to Dositheus, Samaritan heretic considered by Origen as contemporary of Jesus
  • Georges Ory was probably right: Theudas is one and the same as the Samaritan false prophet.
Now, this explains why the Baptist Passage was interpolated just after the Josephian episode of the Samaritan false prophet: to distinguish John the Baptist from Theudas.
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by Giuseppe »

Now I can finally reconstruct the Christian Origins under a better light:
  • 30 CE Pilate killed the Samaritan false prophet, Theudas/Dositheus.
  • 30-70 CE The followers of this Theudas considered him risen.
  • 70 CE crucifixion + survival of Jesus b. Sapphat. His apocalytptic anti-Roman oracles ended in the Book of Revelation (Jewish layer).
  • 70-80 CE Herodian agent Paul/Shaul misheard or misunderstood (deliberately?) the rumors about the miracolous survival of Jesus b. Sapphat, in order to invent a new pro-Roman religion based on the crucifixion, death and resurrection of a Jesus figure.
  • 80-130 CE the followers of Theudas, the Dositheans, became enemies of the Christians, insofar they claimed that Theudas was the risen Christ, not Jesus of Galilee (exalted as "Jesus Christ" by Paul).
  • 130-135 CE birth of the Gospels: Theudas/Dositheus was domesticated as 'John the Baptist' and, partially, as "Thomas". This resulted in a shift in time: Jesus of Galilee was placed (in the fiction) under Pilate, because in this way he could be made contemporary of "John the Baptist" and so supersede him as the true Christ. As effect of the fusion, Simon bar Giora became in the same time Simon Peter disciple of Jesus of Galilee, and Simon Magus, disciple of Dositheus.
  • 200 CE the Baptist Passage was interpolated in Josephus to neutralize the risk that the false Samaritan prophet was still recognized (by some readers) for his true identity: Theudas/"John"/Dositheus.

The Samaritan false prophet (Theudas) + Jesus b. Sapphat = Jesus Christ.
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:18 pm Now I can finally reconstruct the Christian Origins under a better light:
  • 30 CE Pilate killed the Samaritan false prophet, Theudas/Dositheus.
  • 30-70 CE The followers of this Theudas considered him risen.
  • 70 CE crucifixion + survival of Jesus b. Sapphat. His apocalytptic anti-Roman oracles ended in the Book of Revelation (Jewish layer).
  • 70-80 CE Herodian agent Paul/Shaul misheard or misunderstood (deliberately?) the rumors about the miracolous survival of Jesus b. Sapphat, in order to invent a new pro-Roman religion based on the crucifixion, death and resurrection of a Jesus figure.
  • 80-130 CE the followers of Theudas, the Dositheans, became enemies of the Christians, insofar they claimed that Theudas was the risen Christ, not Jesus of Galilee (exalted as "Jesus Christ" by Paul).
  • 130-135 CE birth of the Gospels: Theudas/Dositheus was domesticated as 'John the Baptist' and, partially, as "Thomas". This resulted in a shift in time: Jesus of Galilee was placed (in the fiction) under Pilate, because in this way he could be made contemporary of "John the Baptist" and so supersede him as the true Christ. As effect of the fusion, Simon bar Giora became in the same time Simon Peter disciple of Jesus of Galilee, and Simon Magus, disciple of Dositheus.
  • 200 CE the Baptist Passage was interpolated in Josephus to neutralize the risk that the false Samaritan prophet was still recognized (by some readers) for his true identity: Theudas/"John"/Dositheus.

The Samaritan false prophet (Theudas) + Jesus b. Sapphat = Jesus Christ.
That's not a bad timeline really - but I would place Marcion somewhere there as the first one to create anything like a written testimony or narrative.
Paul copied Marcion's letters, not the other way around
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:32 pm That's not a bad timeline really - but I would place Marcion somewhere there as the first one to create anything like a written testimony or narrative.
Paul copied Marcion's letters, not the other way around
Marcion is virtually implied in my dating of the birth of the Gospels: 130-135 CE.

If Turner's solution is correct, then one can't help but conclude that, per Occam, the two figures (the Samaritan false prophet and Theudas) were one and the same, hence, probably, the same rival 'heretical' Messiah described in the Christian tradition (Contra Celsum 1.57) as the Samaritan Dositheus.

Then the Solomon's hypothesis about the reason of the shift in time (a confusion between Jesus of Galilee and the Samaritan false prophet) takes on particular force: the merging of two rival sects (one worshipping Theudas as the true Joshua redivivus, and the other worshipping Jesus of Galilee as Jesus Christ) could be extremely facilitated by the (diplomatic) merging of the two respective messiahs into one, in order to satisfy both.
  • It has been argued that the Thomas's episode in John 20:24-29 was fabricated to confute the claims by some heretical Christians who claimed that Thomas was the true Risen Christ. For example, in the Acts of Thomas we read: “Jesus then appeared under the form of Thomas and sat on the bed.” And Valentinus claimed that Paul knew Theudas (as the risen Christ?). Now, Theudas sounds similar to Thomas: coincidence?
  • Epiphanius said that Dositheus found his death by starvation in a cave: was he denying the name of a different hero for the empty tomb?

In short, the Dosithean threat would explain the shift in time, at least as well as the Mead's hypothesis:


"They of Basilides," says Clement, "celebrate His Baptism by a preliminary night-service of readings; and they say that 'the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar' means the fifteenth day of the month Tybi." It was then that the Father "in the likeness of a dove"--which they explained as meaning the Minister or Holy Spirit--came upon Him. In "the fifteenth [year] of Tib[erius]" we have, then, perhaps an interesting glimpse into the workshop of the "historicizers." [Fragments of a Faith Forgotten p. 278]

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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by Giuseppe »

I would add, in support of my argument, this incredible Logion 13 from Gospel of Thomas:

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth utterly will not let me say what you resemble." Jesus said, "I am not your teacher, for you have drunk and become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. And he took him, withdrew, and said three sayings to him. Now, when Thomas came to his companions they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?" Thomas said to them, "If I say to you one of the sayings that he said to me, you will take stones and stone me, and fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."

Here Thomas is clearly posing as the same Theudas/Dositheus: he is receiving approval of the his being the true Messiah by Jesus himself.

I interpret this as a polemical retort by Dositheans against the Christian propaganda that had Theudas/Thomas/Dositheus as a mere disciple of Jesus and one even doubtful (denier?) of him.
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by mlinssen »

I'm unsure that we will ever find one coherent explanation for all the distractions - apart from having to try to obfuscate things, we are talking about a century of one / two / three where record keeping was entirely up to anyone and everyone.
Other than that, opinions and (political) goals change over time, not to mention sources consulted - it is all one great moving target with changes being changed due to changing viewpoints with other changes being left unchanged because the effort involved in changing them didn't outweigh the potential return on investment

Yeah, that is supposed to slightly confuse LOL

I admire your ambition Giuseppe, but Christianity is a 2nd century Greco-Roman production, predated to the first century so they could claim priority and originality - and we can still see that spasm in anything Churchian, where religiots are desperate to date anything they like as early as possible, while everything they don't like gets dated 3rd CE or after
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:23 am I would add, in support of my argument, this incredible Logion 13 from Gospel of Thomas:

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth utterly will not let me say what you resemble." Jesus said, "I am not your teacher, for you have drunk and become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. And he took him, withdrew, and said three sayings to him. Now, when Thomas came to his companions they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?" Thomas said to them, "If I say to you one of the sayings that he said to me, you will take stones and stone me, and fire will come out of the stones and burn you up."

Here Thomas is clearly posing as the same Theudas/Dositheus: he is receiving approval of the his being the true Messiah by Jesus himself.

I interpret this as a polemical retort by Dositheans against the Christian propaganda that had Theudas/Thomas/Dositheus as a mere disciple of Jesus and one even doubtful (denier?) of him.
I have quite a lot to say about that in my Commentary, but Thomas simply has a moment of Enlightenment here, there is nothing Messianic in any of Thomas.
It is not the fire that will burn them, by the way - but the boiling Fountain
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by davidmartin »

it's been noted re: odes of solomon the first letter of each ode if translated to hebrew or aramaic? is the letters of the alphabet in order, but it breaks down after a dozen or so. i had a half assed look at this (and lost my notes) but i recall seeing the word 'theudas' in there after some fettling (ie swapping one word for another, including/excluding defintate articles etc). take this with a mountain of salt i promise nothing!
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:18 pm
  • 30 CE Pilate killed the Samaritan false prophet, Theudas/Dositheus.
  • 30-70 CE The followers of this Theudas considered him risen.
At this point, might as well just simplify and say there was a historical Jesus, who was crucified, etc.

I'm not sure what motivates all this other stuff other than a strong desire (bias) to eliminate a historical Jesus from the equation.
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Re: Turner's case for Theudas uprising in 30 CE (under Pilate, not Fadus)

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:57 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:18 pm
  • 30 CE Pilate killed the Samaritan false prophet, Theudas/Dositheus.
  • 30-70 CE The followers of this Theudas considered him risen.
At this point, might as well just simplify and say there was a historical Jesus, who was crucified, etc.
and that he was a Samaritan and as such anti-Temple? After anything has been said about Jesus "the Jew" etc?
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:57 pm I'm not sure what motivates all this other stuff other than a strong desire (bias) to eliminate a historical Jesus from the equation.
you seem to note/to like not the qualitative difference between having a Jesus witnessed with certainty by Josephus and having a Jesus never witnessed by nothing on the face of earth.
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