What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

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Charles Wilson
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What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

In several Threads recently, a point has arisen concerning Matthew's use of "The Kingdom of Heaven". Matthew uses this phrase something like 29 times and it is an unexplained oddity in that Text. I state again that the Moffatt Translation uses "Realm of Heaven" and I have always found that phrase elegant and pleasing. I use that phrase often. James Moffatt was no Fly-By-Nighter in the Translation Biz and I am glad that I found his Work. Recently, I used an Online Version of Moffatt and Searched "Realm of Heaven" and Posted the results.

One thing that using "Realm of Heaven" did for me was to reorient my view of possible Meanings for this phrase. If "Realm of Heaven" was not Glorious Christian Metaphysics, what would another, Physical Meaning of the Phrase entail?

I ask for someone to tell me: "What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being a Real, Physical Place?"
***
https://archive.org/details/newtestamen ... +of+heaven

What follows are the verses from Matthew that contain "Realm of Heaven" and have an obvious Physical Possibility. For example:

"Blessed are those who feel poor in spirit! the Realm of heaven is theirs." is too vague for this. I may find a Symbolic Meaning for it but there is nothing in it to suggest to others that this has a particular "Other Meaning".

We start with:
(Matthew and Moffatt):

5: 20:

For I tell you, unless your goodness excels that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never get into the Realm of heaven

The Scribes and Pharisees were Real, Physical People. Unless you can fabricate a Metaphysics that allows real people to prevent Spirit Beings from entering a Spiritual Realm of Heaven, "Your Goodness" has a more Down-to-Earth Meaning.

7:21:

It is not everyone who says to me ' Lord, Lord ', who will get into the Realm of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven.

This one straddles the fence, so to speak. From the Christian Metaphysics POV, you only have to declare "Jesus as your..." etc., etc. except that here, those who Proclaim haven't completed their Sweepstakes Entry Form just yet. On the other hand, there has to be a Boatload of Analysis to discover just what the Scene is that would allow someone to get into the Realm of Heaven by merely stating "Lord, Lord..."

8: 11:

"Many, I tell you, will come from east and west and take their places beside Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Realm of heaven, while the sons of the Realm will pass outside, into the darkness ; there men will wail and gnash their teeth."

This is tantalizingly close. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead, of course. If seen from a Judaic POV, this is Symbolic. It COULD be descriptive of a Real Place. It is not certain.

11: 11 - 14:

I tell you truly, no one has arisen among the sons of women who is greater than John the Baptist, and yet the least in the Realm of heaven is greater than he is. From the days of John the Baptist till now the Realm of heaven suffers violence, and the violent press into it. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied of it until John: — if you care to believe it, he is the Elijah who is to come.

There is an Implied Logic here and the Metaphysical Explanation hides the fact: No one was greater that John the Baptist yet the LEAST in the Realm of Heaven is greater than he.
John the Baptist did not make it into the Realm of Heaven while the LEAST in the Realm of Heaven did. What Event is given here?
The simpler Understanding is that the Realm of Heaven was a Place of Safety and the LEAST - a child, perhaps? - did in fact, make it to safety while John did not.

18: 1 - 5:

At that hour the disciples came and asked Jesus, " Who is greatest in the Realm of heaven ? " So he called a child, set it among them, and said, " I tell you truly, unless you turn and become like children, you will never get into the Realm of heaven at all. Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the Realm of heaven; and whoever receives a little child like this for my sake, receives me

This Section points beyond itself. It validates that idea that there was a Realm of Heaven that was a Real Physical Place and that SOMETHING happened that made it imperative that some people would do almost anything to get in. There are alternate Christian Translations that posit, "...unless you CHANGE and become like children..." but it is here that another Document, Luke, tells us that that "TURN" is correct:

Luke 19: 23 - 30 (RSV):

[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
[25] When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, `Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, `I do not know where you come from.'
[26] Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.'
[27] But he will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!'
[28] There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God.
[30] And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Luke complements Matthew here. I believe these Stories are from the same Source:
"The door to safety is so small that you must turn as a child to get into the Realm of Heaven..."
YMMV.

19: 23 - 24:

" I tell you truly, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the Realm of heaven. I tell you again, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle's eye than for a rich man to get into the Realm of heaven."

Regardless as to whether it is easier for a camel to get through a needle's eye or a ROPE, this continues and reinforces the idea: There is a "Realm of Heaven" reserved for people who have greater Righteousness than the Scribes and Pharisees and some Event occurred that caused people to try anything to get there, only to be prevented by the Scribes and Pharisees.

23: 13:

Woe to you, you impious scribes
and Pharisees ! you shut the Realm of heaven
in men's faces; you neither enter yourselves, nor will you let those enter
who are on the point of
entering

Here it is again, with feeling! Scribes and Pharisees were REAL PEOPLE and they kept MEN - Real People - from entering the Realm of Heaven! This is not Glorious Christian Metaphysics. This offers very plain evidence that the Realm of Heaven was a Real, Physical Place!

25: 1 - 13:

1 Then shall the Realm of heaven be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride.*
2 Five of them were stupid and five
3 were sensible. For although the stupid took their lamps, they took
4 no oil with them, whereas the sensible took oil in their vessels as
5 well as their lamps. As the bride- groom was long of coming, they all grew drowsy and went to sleep.
6 But at midnight the cry arose, ' Here is the bridegroom! Come out to
7 meet him ! ' Then all the maidens rose and trimmed their lamps.
8 The stupid said to the sensible, ' Give us some of your oil, for our
9 lamps are going out.' But the sensible replied, * No, there may not be enough for us and for you. Better go to the dealers and buy
10 for yourselves.' Now while they were away buying oil, the bride- groom arrived ; those maidens who were ready accompanied him to the marriage-banquet, and the door
11 was shut. Afterwards the rest of the maidens came and said, * Oh sir, oh
12 sir, open the door for us ! ' but he replied, ' I tell you frankly, I do not
13 know you.' Keep on the watch then, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

This not only gives a reason for believing that the Realm of Heaven was Real but that there are Historical Markers. I take it that this is a thinly covered rewrite of the Passover of 4 BCE at the ascension of Archelaus.
***
There's enough Metaphysics for everyone who wants to imbibe but there are Passages in Matthew that are telling us that "The Realm of Heaven" was a Real, Physical Place. It appears to be a Place reserved for the Priests (and the child Peter, who is therefore from a Priestly Family).

Someone tell me: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

CW
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Fri May 14, 2021 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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mlinssen
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What's Wrong with your eyesight?

Post by mlinssen »

Chapter 1 The Genealogy of Jesus
Chapter 2 The Pilgrimage of the Magi
Chapter 3 The Mission of John the Baptist
2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.”
16 And immediately, having been baptized, Jesus went up from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and alighting upon Him.
17 And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is my Son, the beloved, in whom I was well pleased.”
Chapter 4 The Temptation of Jesus
17 From that time Jesus began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near!”
Chapter 5 The Sermon on the Mount
3 “Blessed are the poor in the spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.
10 Blessed are those having been persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens.
12 Rejoice and exult, because great is your reward in the heavens; for thus they persecuted the prophets before you.
16 Thus let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and they should glorify your Father in the heavens.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen.
19 Whoever then shall break one of the least of these commandments and shall teach others the same, he will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever shall keep and shall teach them, he will be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall abound above that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
34 But I say to you not to swear at all: neither by heaven, because it is the throne of God;
45 so that you may be sons of your Father in the heavens. For He makes His sun rise on evil and good, and He sends rain on righteous and unrighteous.
48 You shall be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.
Chapter 6 Giving to the Needy
1 And beware not to do your righteousness before men in order to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward in the presence of your Father in the heavens.
‘Our Father in the heavens, hallowed be Your name!
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done as in heaven, so also upon earth.
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroy, and where thieves do not break in nor steal.
26 Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow nor do they reap, nor do they gather into barns, and your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they[?]
32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things. For your Heavenly Father knows that you have need of them all.
Chapter 7 Do Not Judge
11 Therefore, if you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in the heavens give good things to those asking Him!
21 Not everyone saying to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of My Father in the heavens.
Chapter 8 The Leper's Prayer
11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.
Chapter 9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic
Chapter 10 The Twelve Apostles
7 And going on, proclaim, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near!’
32 Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens.
33 And whoever shall deny Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father in the heavens.
Chapter 11 John's Inquiry
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he!
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of the heavens is taken by violencec and the violent seize it.
23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, but will be brought down to Hades! For if the miracles having taken place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
25 At that time, Jesus answering said, “I fully consent to You, Father, Lord of the heaven and the earth, that You did hide these things from the wise and learned, and did reveal them to little children.
Chapter 12 The Lord of the Sabbath
50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father who is in the heavens, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
Chapter 13 The Parable of the Sower
11 And answering He said to them, “Because it has been granted to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it has not been granted.
24 He put before them another parable, saying, “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man having sown good seed in his field.
31 He put before them another parable, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man having taken, sowed in his field,
33 He spoke to them another parable: “The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman having taken, hid in three measures of flour until all of it was leavened.”
44 The kingdom of the heavens is like treasure having been hidden in the field, which a man having found, hid. And for joy over it, he goes and he sells all that he has, and buys that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a merchant seeking fine pearls.
47 Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet having been cast into the sea, and having gathered together of every kind,
52 And He said to them, “Because of this, every scribe having been discipled into the kingdom of the heavens is like a man, a master of a house, who puts forth out of his treasure new and old.”
Chapter 14 The Beheading of John
19 And having commanded the crowds to sit down on the grass, having taken the five loaves and the two fish, having looked up to heaven, He spoke a blessing. And having broken, He gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples to the crowds.
Chapter 15 Tradition and Worship
13 And answering He said, “Every plant that My Heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up.
Chapter 16 The Demand for a Sign
1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees having approached testing Him, asked Him to show them a sign out of heaven.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in the heavens.
19 I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you might bind on the earth shall have been bound in the heavens, and whatever you might loose on the earth shall have been loosed in the heavens.”
Chapter 17 The Transfiguration
Chapter 18 The Greatest in the Kingdom
1 In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?”
3 and said, “Truly I say to you, if you are not converted and become as the little children, you shall never enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
4 Therefore whoever will humble himself as this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens.
10 See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that their angels in the heavens continually behold the face of my Father, who is in the heavens.a
14 Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish.
18 Truly I say to you, whatever you shall bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 Again truly I say to you that if two of you on the earth might agree concerning any matter that they shall ask, it will be done for them by My Father who is in the heavens.
23 Because of this, the kingdom of the heavens has become like to a man, a king, who desired to settle accounts with his servants.
35 Thus also My Heavenly Father will do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from your heart.”
Chapter 19 Teachings about Divorce
12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of the heavens. The one being able to receive it, let him receive it.”
14 But Jesus said, “Permit the little children, and do not forbid them to come to Me, for of such is the kingdom of the heavens.”
21 Jesus was saying to him, “If you desire to be perfect, go, sell what you are possessing, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come, follow Me.”
23 And Jesus said His to disciples, “Truly I say to you that with difficulty a rich man will enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
Chapter 20 The Parable of the Workers
1 For the kingdom of the heavens is like to a man, a master of a house, who went out in the morning to hire workmen for his vineyard.
Chapter 21 The Triumphal Entry
25 From where was the baptism of John? From heaven, or from men?” And they were reasoning with themselves, saying, “If we should say, ‘from heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Chapter 22 The Parable of the Banquet
2 “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, who made a wedding feast for his son.
30 For in the resurrection, neither do they marry, nor are given in marriage, but they are like angels in heaven.
Chapter 23 Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
9 And call no one your father on the earth; for One is your Father, who is in heaven.
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men. For you neither enter, nor even do you allow those who are entering to go in.
22 And the one having sworn by heaven swears by the throne of God and by the One sitting upon it.
Chapter 24 Temple Destruction Foretold
‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great trumpet call, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to the ends thereof.
35 The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, except the Father only.
Chapter 25 The Parable of the Ten Virgins
1 Then the kingdom of the heavens will be likened to ten virgins, who, having taken their lamps, went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Chapter 26 The Plot to Kill Jesus
64 Jesus says to him, “You have said. But I say to you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming upon the clouds of heaven.”g
Chapter 27 Jesus Delivered to Pilate
Chapter 28 The Resurrection
2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, having descended out of heaven and having come, rolled away the stone and was sitting upon it.
18 And having come to them, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on the earth has been given to Me.
Charles Wilson
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Charles Wilson wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:35 am Matthew 23: 13 (Moffatt):

Woe to you, you impious scribes
and Pharisees ! you shut the Realm of heaven
in men's faces; you neither enter yourselves, nor will you let those enter
who are on the point of
entering

Here it is again, with feeling! Scribes and Pharisees were REAL PEOPLE and they kept MEN - Real People - from entering the Realm of Heaven! This is not Glorious Christian Metaphysics. This offers very plain evidence that the Realm of Heaven was a Real, Physical Place!
I appreciate the work you've put into "Heaven"/"Heavens", mlinssen. Plz show how these verses prove that "Kingdom of Heaven"/"Realm of Heaven" could NOT be a Real, Physical Place.

Matthew 23: 13 above is as Real as it gets. Again, the Scribes and Pharisees were Real People. They shut the Realm of Heaven in MEN'S Faces. Someone PLEASE give me some analysis that shows that the Realm of Heaven could not be a Real Place.

It makes a difference if this is an Artifact from an earlier time, a time before the Destruction of the Temple. It makes a difference if there is a reason for the Scribes and Pharisees to have prevented Real People from entering the Realm of Heaven.

Mark 1: 23 - 24 (RSV):

[23] And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit;
[24] and he cried out, "What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God."

"What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us?..."

The "Unclean Spirit" KNOWS. It is as if the Unclean Spirit knows about something that happened - probably years ago, by implication.

"What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth?" (We weren't THERE years ago when the Scribes and Pharisees prevented you from entering the Realm of Heaven.)"

"Have you come to destroy us?" (Though we have a kinship with these people - years ago - we are not the people that kept you out of the Realm of Heaven...)"

For those who wish to see what I see, please look at this. There are 2 Stories that have been telescoped into one and *IF* the Realm of Heaven was a Real Physical Place, the Transvaluation of All Values can be seen for what it was.

Thank you,

CW
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by mlinssen »

Charles Wilson wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:23 pm
Charles Wilson wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:35 am Matthew 23: 13 (Moffatt):

Woe to you, you impious scribes
and Pharisees ! you shut the Realm of heaven
in men's faces; you neither enter yourselves, nor will you let those enter
who are on the point of
entering

Here it is again, with feeling! Scribes and Pharisees were REAL PEOPLE and they kept MEN - Real People - from entering the Realm of Heaven! This is not Glorious Christian Metaphysics. This offers very plain evidence that the Realm of Heaven was a Real, Physical Place!
I appreciate the work you've put into "Heaven"/"Heavens", mlinssen. Plz show how these verses prove that "Kingdom of Heaven"/"Realm of Heaven" could NOT be a Real, Physical Place.

Matthew 23: 13 above is as Real as it gets. Again, the Scribes and Pharisees were Real People. They shut the Realm of Heaven in MEN'S Faces. Someone PLEASE give me some analysis that shows that the Realm of Heaven could not be a Real Place.
Matthew 23:13 is a mash up of Thomas and Luke, carefully avoiding the word Gnosis and keys, among others: viewtopic.php?p=119376#p119376

Just a question though: what if there were a real physical heaven? How would you get there, in what form, and what on earth would you do there?
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:05 amJust a question though: what if there were a real physical heaven? How would you get there, in what form, and what on earth would you do there?
You would be a Priest of the Mishmarot Priesthood. You would have your Assigned Settlement in The Galilee. Every 168 days, you would rotate into Jerusalem for your Assigned Week of Service at the Temple on the Weekly Sabbath. There are the Feasts and the High Sabbaths to deal with as well. Bilgah is on Duty for the Passover and Feast at 4 BCE. It is at the death of Herod and he dies about a week too soon. There is a Coup which probably originates in the Mishamrot Group Immer. At the change on the Weekly Sabbath, Immer rotates into Jerusalem, following Bilgah, for the Re-dedication of the Temple on the Weekly Sabbath after the last three days and three nights from Bilgah's Week. The Romans and the Herodians will be evicted as God stands by the Priests as He promised in Leviticus.

Something goes wrong and 3000+ are murdered in and around the Temple. Passover and the Feast are Cancelled. The Nation is Unclean. As the 3000 are being killed, a few are in the Death and they attempt to find safety in...

...THE REALM OF HEAVEN.

They are prevented from entering this Place by the Scribes and Pharisees*. It appears to be in Antonia and it is where the Priests congregate before and after their Duty on the Temple Altar. The Temple Atrocity is laid at the feet of Archelaus who ascends the throne at the death of Herod - At least, according to Ptolemy, keeper of Herod's Seal, who displays a Changed Will after Herod's death.

Ptolemy is the brother of Nicholas of Damascus, who probably played a huge role in the Construction of the NT.

This is why the Realm of Heaven is important in the Construction of the NT.

If the NT is a rewrite of the Events of 4 BCE (and the Duplicate Passover 12 year later!), the "Jesus" character is a rewrite of the Priest who was saved by Peter. Existence is not a Predicate. "Jesus" is the supposed Son of God and is Pre-Existence Incarnate. The Priest and the Priesthood are forgotten Relics, "Done-Away-With".

The "Realm of Heaven", where the child Peter leaves to save the Priest in the Death, is a Real, Physical Place, in and of the Mishmarot Priesthood.
Unless anyone can show me that it cannot be.

Best,

CW

*Edit Note:

Since the Ordering of the Slaughter was a Military Operation, the rewrite that places the blame of the Scribes and the Pharisees must be explained. No doubt the S&Ps approved the Operation. The Scribes are prevented from writing about the episode2 and the Pharisees are protecting their Bureaucratic Positions. We get a hint of the Reality in Mark:

Mark 6: 47 - 48 (RSV):

[47] And when evening came, the boat was out on the sea, and he was alone on the land.
[48] And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them,
[49] but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out...

"Fourth Watch" is a Roman Military Term. Josephus gives an opaque description of the EXTERNAL Story. The NT gives the Transvalued INTERNAL Story of the Priest who was caught out in the Death and should have died, only to be saved by the Character "Peter". The S&Ps could have controlled the Doors of Antonia from inside, preventing the Priest from obtaining Safety. The soldiers controlled the outside, killing 3000.

2 This is the purpose of the Passage concerning "The Man with the Withered Hand". The "Jesus" character releases the Scribe from his restrictions on telling of the Temple Slaughter that occurred years ago.
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

mlinssen wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:05 amJust a question though: what if there were a real physical heaven? How would you get there, in what form, and what on earth would you do there?

mlinssen --

You asked a question and I answered it.
Would you plz comment?

Again, if Thomas and Luke are blenderized into the Matthew 18: 1 - 5 Passage, how does this refute the Thesis that the Kingdom of Heaven/Realm of Heaven was a Real Place?
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by mlinssen »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 3:03 am
mlinssen wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:05 amJust a question though: what if there were a real physical heaven? How would you get there, in what form, and what on earth would you do there?

mlinssen --

You asked a question and I answered it.
Would you plz comment?

Again, if Thomas and Luke are blenderized into the Matthew 18: 1 - 5 Passage, how does this refute the Thesis that the Kingdom of Heaven/Realm of Heaven was a Real Place?
If you call that an answer to my question, then forget I asked
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Before this Thread disappears into the Depths, is there anyone who might have some Constructive Comments on the Subject?
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by lsayre »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:11 pm Before this Thread disappears into the Depths, is there anyone who might have some Constructive Comments on the Subject?
Well, it does appear that there is the coming promise of a new heaven (likely among a multiplicity of extant heavens) and a new earth, presumably along with a new Holy City replete with a new house of God (or Temple).
Rev 21:1-4
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place1 of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,2 and God himself will be with them as their God.3 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
And from (for example) Matthew 5:34 we know that heaven is where God's throne is:
But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, ...
And it can be presumed that God's throne resides within God's house, so apparently at one time the Temple must have represented a rather significantly important one of the Heavens (Pl) that indeed was here on Earth.
Last edited by lsayre on Fri May 14, 2021 2:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

lsayre --

You are quite correct.

Deuteronomy 30: 10 - 14 (RSV):

[10] if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
[11] "For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
[12] It is not in heaven, that you should say, `Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, `Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
[14] But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

This is what must be finessed in the move to Rome and the realization comes later in the New Religion. The Law "...is not too hard for you, neither is it far off." In the POV of Judaic History, you could even argue with God and although you could not see him directly, you could see His back.

"Paul" has given an Unbridgeable Gap between the Christian Spiritual (Plato) and the Person. "That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit".

One of the Solutions for the Conundrum is to Re-Define Terms and move the Promises into the future. All I have tried to do is look at a term that has been Transvalued for all Values. The problem with this is that there are archaic terms that point to something else.

"Kingdom of Heaven" evidently had meaning for the Temple Priesthood and I trust that you see the Post-Temple Problem: "It is inconceivable that a Term such as 'Realm of Heaven' could have a Meaning in the Judaic World before Christianity."

Except that it could have meaning and, if Matthew is an Indicator, DID have meaning to the Priesthood since it represented a Real, Physical Place.
It was a Place, Holier than any Place the Scribes and Pharisees could enter.

If you render "Kingdom of Heaven" as a Promise made by God for some far-off future, the replacement of the Judaic Temple Culture may proceed with a savior/god who was Blemished, Unclean and on the face of it a victim of Human Sacrifice.

On to Rome.

Thanx again, lsayre.

CW
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