What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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billd89
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Re: "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real

Post by billd89 »

C.200 AD?
Link
The Merkavah mystics had no special interest in the lower universe for the texts suggest that the “descenders” overstepped the spheres of the planets and the stars and started their journey immediately in the celestial realm above the firmament. Otherwise, the heavenly world resembled the cosmos below the firmament in so far as it was imagined as a structure of super-imposed layers of increasing holiness, all of them more or less equal in size and shape. The mystics are likely to have imagined the world above as an immense structure with the features of a temple as well those of a royal palace. Also the highest heaven, the palace of the divine Chariot, is depicted as a concrete and tangible space, rather than as a transcendent and unlimited realm.

Charles Wilson
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Re: "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real

Post by Charles Wilson »

billd89 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:50 am C.200 AD?
Link
The Merkavah mystics had no special interest in the lower universe for the texts suggest that the “descenders” overstepped the spheres of the planets and the stars and started their journey immediately in the celestial realm above the firmament. Otherwise, the heavenly world resembled the cosmos below the firmament in so far as it was imagined as a structure of super-imposed layers of increasing holiness, all of them more or less equal in size and shape. The mystics are likely to have imagined the world above as an immense structure with the features of a temple as well those of a royal palace. Also the highest heaven, the palace of the divine Chariot, is depicted as a concrete and tangible space, rather than as a transcendent and unlimited realm.

Thank you billd89.
I note from the ever-Politicized Wiki-P:

"The sages Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakkai (d. c. 80 CE) and later, Rabbi Akiva (d. 135) were deeply involved in merkabah exegesis. Rabbi Akiva and his contemporary Rabbi Ishmael ben Elisha are most often the protagonists of later merkabah ascent literature..."

This mention of Zakkai and Akiva immediately catches my attention.
Are they telling us something?

VERY Interesting.

CW
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billd89
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Re: Merkavah Mysticism

Post by billd89 »

I was conservatively dating "c.200 AD?" following the link, consensus, etc.

I suppose the Merkavah (Chariot) mysticism predates the Hekhalot (Palaces) literature by several centuries. Gershom Scholem argued (in the 1930s) for a First Century AD "rabbinical gnosticism" also; that seems too early for the 'scholarly consensus' now. As I've mentioned before, Scholem associated the Therapeutae (c.20 AD) w/ the (proto-?) Merkavah mystics in his discussion of Jewish Gnosticism, Major Trends pp.13-4, a (probably decisive) lead in my own project. But I agree the oldest Hekhalot literature (c.75-150 AD) should be contemporaneous w/ the NT, so relevant for comparison.
Charles Wilson wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 11:07 amThis mention of Zakkai and Akiva immediately catches my attention.
Are they telling us something?
Not to get political, but ...

Rebuild the Temple. (At least in your mind, for now, etc.)
Charles Wilson
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Re: What's Wrong with "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

A very Literary Explanation:

https://www.sefaria.org/Taanit.20b?lang=bi

"And the mishna further taught that the Temple was destroyed for the second time also on the Ninth of Av. The Gemara asks: From where do we derive that the Second Temple was destroyed on this date? It is taught in a baraita: A meritorious matter is brought about on an auspicious day, and a deleterious matter on an inauspicious day, e.g., the Ninth of Av, on which several tragedies had already occurred.

"The Sages said: When the Temple was destroyed for the first time, that day was the Ninth of Av; and it was the conclusion of Shabbat; and it was the year after a Sabbatical Year; and it was the week of the priestly watch of Jehoiarib; and the Levites were singing the song and standing on their platform. And what song were they singing? They were singing the verse: “And He brought upon them their own iniquity, and He will cut them off in their own evil” (Psalms 94:23). And they did not manage to recite the end of the verse: “The Lord our God will cut them off,” before gentiles came and conquered them. And likewise, the same happened when the Second Temple was destroyed..."

"The Sages..." must find a Way to continue Judaism in a manner not threatening to You-Know-Who. The Hasmonean Dynasty has been throttled and that Threat has disappeared. The Hasmoneans were folded into the Mishmarot Groups of the Leading Group Jehoiarib (the "Leading" Group from 1 Chronicles 24) but also the Group Immer which has an assigned Settlement down the street from Jehoiarib at Meiron (Elizur, Leibner). Immer believes the Hasmoneans came from them,

This very Literary Device may or may not be True. The Story was written by those who were there at the Fall of the Temple or those within a generation or two of The Fall of the Temple. This Story exhibits two important Points:

1.The Hasmoneans are Deprecated in the eyes of many since they ostensibly On Duty for both Destructions of the Temple. The Group Bilgah committed an Offense against the Priesthood and the Mishmarot Priests even considered removing that Group from the 24. What Penalty would thereby be appropriate for the Hasmoneans?

"...But what has this to do with the NT?"

John 1: 29 (RSV):

[29] Next day he observed Jesus coming towards him and exclaimed, " Look, there is the lamb of God, who is to remove the sin of the world! That is he of whom I said, * The man who is to succeed me has taken precedence of me, for he preceded me.'

A. "Lamb of God" => Strong's H563, H464 https://studybible.info/strongs/H563 , toggle to H564. "Lamb" is identical to "The Sixteenth Mishmarot Service Group". Immar has an automatic Word-Play with Immer. BECAUSE...:
B. In the Mishmarot Priesthood from 1 Chronicles 24, Immer follows Bilgah. Bilgah has committed an Offense against the Priesthood. Therefore, though Immer follows Bilgah, Immer is ranked "Higher" than Bilgah:

John 1: 15 (Moffatt):

[15] ('This was he of whom I said, my successor has taken precedence of me, for he preceded me.')

2. This is where the "Sages" are telling us something. We have the Date for the Destruction of the Temple and the Mishmarot Group Jehoiarib was ostensibly On Duty for both Tragedies.

A. There are 24 Mishmarot Groups. Each Group rotates into Jerusalem on the Weekly Sabbath.
24 Groups x 7 days = 168 days. Therefore, every 168 days, the same Mishmarot Group rotates into Jerusalem.
B. With the designation of Jehoiarib as being on Duty during the week of the Destruction of the Temple, we can find out which Group was On Duty for any week.

C. All we need to do is find an "Objective Calendar" for calculating purposes. The "Julian Day Calendar" f'rinstance.
We need to find an Objective Sighting of the New Moon and there are the US Naval Observatory Calculations for that.
D. Note that we are participating in the War of the Calendars with this. Eisenman and Wise note that the Qumran Group used the Mishmarot Rotations as a Check on the various Holy Days. They wanted to Mandate their Solar Calendar when they took over in Jerusalem.

E. What do we find? We find that at the Passover of 4 BCE, Herod dies too soon and Ptolemy produces a New Will that proclaims Archelaus as successor.
Who is on Duty?

Bilgah. Immer.

Further, every 6 years, the Rotation repeats with the same week being used (Eisenman and Wise again.). Thus, if the 4 BCE Passover and Feast provide the Basis for many of the NT Stories, "The Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood", "Jairus' Daughter", "The Woman Bent Over for 18 years" and other Markers (Hi, maryhelena!) point to the 9 CE Passover as a "Duplicate Passover" where the Sad Story of the Priest and Peter comes to an end.
***
The thing is, you can verify these points with simple calculations, though no one here appears to have tried in previous Iterations of this Post. You may not accept that the Priesthood is important as a Template for the NT. To get to your point, a rebuilding of the Temple was very probably on the minds of many after the Roman Conflagration.

Zakkai and those who followed attempted to re-define Judaism. Mysticism may have played a part in what was allowable at that time. They may have been forced to help write the story that a savior/god came out of the ashes of the Plunder of the Temple debris in exchange for their lives.

What we have left is the submerged Story of the Mishmarot Priesthood, with Clues left by those who wrote after the Fall of the Temple. The explicit story is the story of the savior/god. Human sacrifice would never be acceptable to the Priesthood. The Roman Thesis triumphs on the surface. Where it counts, the Priesthood is everywhere.

The Realm of Heaven must be a Real, Physical Place.

Best,

CW
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billd89
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Re: "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

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Charles Wilson wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 12:50 pm All we need to do is find an "Objective Calendar" for calculating purposes. The "Julian Day Calendar" f'rinstance. We need to find an Objective Sighting of the New Moon and there are the US Naval Observatory Calculations for that.
D. Note that we are participating in the War of the Calendars with this. Eisenman and Wise note that the Qumran Group used the Mishmarot Rotations as a Check on the various Holy Days. They wanted to Mandate their Solar Calendar when they took over in Jerusalem.

...What we have left is the submerged Story of the Mishmarot Priesthood, with Clues left by those who wrote after the Fall of the Temple. ...

The Realm of Heaven must be a Real, Physical Place.
Astronomical observatory & roof deck room for calculations, at the Temple complex? Who were the astronomers, then?

Or do you mean a topos, a celestial palace, beyond the spheres? (In what dimension, pray tell?)
Charles Wilson
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Re: "The Realm of Heaven" Being Real?

Post by Charles Wilson »

billd89 wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:08 am
Charles Wilson wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 12:50 pm All we need to do is find an "Objective Calendar" for calculating purposes. The "Julian Day Calendar" f'rinstance. We need to find an Objective Sighting of the New Moon and there are the US Naval Observatory Calculations for that.
D. Note that we are participating in the War of the Calendars with this. Eisenman and Wise note that the Qumran Group used the Mishmarot Rotations as a Check on the various Holy Days. They wanted to Mandate their Solar Calendar when they took over in Jerusalem.

...What we have left is the submerged Story of the Mishmarot Priesthood, with Clues left by those who wrote after the Fall of the Temple. ...

The Realm of Heaven must be a Real, Physical Place.
Astronomical observatory & roof deck room for calculations, at the Temple complex? Who were the astronomers, then?

Or do you mean a topos, a celestial palace, beyond the spheres? (In what dimension, pray tell?)
billd89!!!

Let me try to be very explicit here. I have asserted that the NT, especially early Mark, is built around the death of Herod a week or so before the Passover of 4 BCE. There was a Coup planned by the Priesthood - NOT the High Priest and his crowd. The Priesthood.

In the week that leads up to Passover and the Feast, a man named Ptolemy, brother of Nicholas of Damascus, produces a NEW WILL from Herod. Herod is conveniently in Jericho at this time. Ptolemy is KEEPER OF HEROD'S SEAL. You can Prove each point in this paragraph with external sources, principally Josephus.
OK?

The Will specifies that Herod's son, Archelaus, will take over should Herod die.
How Convenient.

Archelaus is in Jerusalem at this Passover. The Priests are performing "Perfect Sacrifices" in anticipation of God descending to them and eliminating the Herodians and the Romans. Leviticus 26 reads as a Perfect Model for what will happen. The Blasphemous Eagle will be cut down and the Rightful Rule of the Priesthood will be restored, the Temple will be Re-Dedicated and the Rule of God will be reasserted.

OK?

Evidently, the Coup was well known and the week after Herod's death is given to preparation for the Counter-Revolution.
At night of Passover, "...around the fourth Watch", Archelaus - or his Assigns - order in the Troops. 3000 are murdered.

Josephus, War..., 2, 1, 3:

"At these clamors Archelaus was provoked, but restrained himself from taking vengeance on the authors, on account of the haste he was in of going to Rome, as fearing lest, upon his making war on the multitude, such an action might detain him at home. Accordingly, he made trial to quiet the innovators by persuasion, rather than by force, and sent his general in a private way to them, and by him exhorted them to be quiet. But the seditious threw stones at him, and drove him away, as he came into the temple, and before he could say any thing to them. The like treatment they showed to others, who came to them after him, many of which were sent by Archelaus, in order to reduce them to sobriety, and these answered still on all occasions after a passionate manner; and it openly appeared that they would not be quiet, if their numbers were but considerable. And indeed, at the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the Passover, and used to he celebrated with a great number of sacrifices, an innumerable multitude of the people came out of the country to worship; some of these stood in the temple bewailing the Rabbins [that had been put to death], and procured their sustenance by begging, in order to support their sedition. At this Archclaus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them..."

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

I trust you see the similarity.

Nonetheless, this initial beginning might not be enough. Enter the Mishmarot Priesthood, from 1 Chronicles 24. If these events were Authored by the Priesthood (and NOT the High Priest Group), then there should be a way that WE - TODAY - might be able to discover which Mishmarot Group was on Duty in 4 BCE at the Passover and Feast. If there is a Link (Beyond COINCIDENCE, the common complaint) from the Histories to the NT, it should satisfy something like the following:

John 1: 15 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")

There is a Candidate that Matches right up: The Mishmarot Group Bilgah, which is seen as a "Lesser Group" because of an Offense against the Priesthood, PRECEEDS Immer. Thus, Immer follows Bilgah but is perceived as being - "Ranked" - above Bilgah.

OK?!?? Now, this is all Well and Good and makes for good discussion but: HOW WOULD YOU VERIFY THIS?
Astronomical observatory & roof deck room for calculations, at the Temple complex? Who were the astronomers, then?
Or do you mean a topos, a celestial palace, beyond the spheres? (In what dimension, pray tell?)
No Metaphysics needed. We're not positing Astronomers with Star Charts and Brahe Type Observations.
This is for the here-and-now. Not a Celestial Jesus. No Metaphysics.

Can we discover who was on Duty for the Passover and Feast of 4 BCE?
We can.

Bilgah. Immer.

Further, Bilgah begins Service for Passover 3 Days and 3 Nights before the Weekly Sabbath which finds Immer ready to Cleanse and Re-Dedicate a NEW TEMPLE, a Temple as of Old.

THAT'S what makes this interesting. "It's there, it really is there"...
Always has been.

CW
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