Prof Arthur Droge agrees with dr. Carrier about an outer space crucifixion in the original Ascension of Isaiah

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Giuseppe
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Prof Arthur Droge agrees with dr. Carrier about an outer space crucifixion in the original Ascension of Isaiah

Post by Giuseppe »

I quote from here the following words of prof Arthur Droge:

But once Christ reaches the lowest or sublunary region – called the “Firmament” – his disguise will change again, and this time he will assume the outward appearance of a human. Indeed, the “God of that world” and his evil hosts will think that Christ is merely “flesh.”51 Yet, they will nevertheless lay hold of the Son and crucify him, despite their ignorance of who he truly is and what they are actually doing. This is a striking parallel to, and explanation of, the claim in our passage that it was the Archons of this Aeon who crucified the Lord of Glory in ignorance.

Next, Isaiah’s angel-guide tells him to watch as Christ begins to transform himself and descend through the seven heavens and finally into the Firmament. Now it is Isaiah who reports what he sees:
And then I saw that … he descended into the Firmament where the Archon
of this world dwells …
and his form (was) like theirs, and they did not
praise him there; but in evil and envying they were fighting one another, for
there is there a power of evil and envying…. And … they were plundering
and doing violence to one another.

It is just at this point that we should expect Isaiah to go on and describe the crucifixion of Christ by the “Archon of this world” and his minions, in fulfillment of what had been previously foreshadowed at Ascen. Isa. 9:14–15. Instead, this report has been removed and several paragraphs have been interpolated in its place that give a brief summary of Christ’s painless birth, his miracles, and his equally painless crucifixion. Yet, if Christ’s true identity was hidden from the “Archon of this world,” how did he know who Christ was in order to lay hands on him? The interpolated material implies that it was the many “signs and wonders” performed by Christ that caused the hostile powers of the Firmament to envy him, though still not comprehending who he truly was: “The Adversary envied him, and roused the Children of Israel against him, not knowing who he was. And they handed him to the Ruler [Pilate?] and crucified him.” Isaiah then adds, “In Jerusalem, indeed, I saw how they crucified him on a tree, and likewise (how) after the third day he rose and remained (many) days.” Christ then ascends in glory (i.e., no longer in disguise) through the cosmos to the seventh heaven, where he is enthroned at the right hand of God.

It is not entirely clear in the interpolated material who was responsible for the actual crucifixion. The “Adversary”? The “Children of Israel”? The “Ruler”? Or did they all conspire together? In any event, the interpolation looks like a later attempt to historicize, and thus render orthodox, what had once been a cosmic or gnostic version of the crucifixion, one in which the hostile powers of the lower world had crucified Christ “in the Firmament,” not “in Jerusalem.”

(my bold)

The first implication is that I was absolutely right about Ben C. Smith being a mere Christian apologist when he insulted who claimed an outer space crucifixion in the original layer of the Ascension of Isaiah.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:00 am
Giuseppe wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:45 amI think that the words are too much self-evident:
And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.
I too think that this verse could have been meant literally in the original version. I am not sure about that, but it is possible. But this has nothing to do with a crucifixion in the firmament or in "outer space."
Droge's words are virtually evidence that Ben is definitely a Christian apologist beyond any doubt, in his irrational opposition a priori to the idea of an outer space crucifixion in at least one early Christian text, not so much different from the opposition to the same idea shown by more evident Christian apologists as Bernard, GDon, et alia.
Giuseppe
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Re: Prof Arthur Droge agrees with dr. Carrier about an outer space crucifixion in the original Ascension of Isaiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Music for my ears:

Earthly rulers simply make no sense in our passage, quite apart from the question whether 2:6–16 is an interpolation. Not only is the important qualifier “of this Aeon” (τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου) missing at Rom. 13:3, so is any hint that these authorities are in the process of “being abolished” (καταργούμενοι), as stated at 2:6. In fact, it is important to Paul’s point at Rom. 13:3 that they not be. No, the “Archons of this Aeon” can only refer to an order of supernatural beings, to the only entities who had anything to lose by the crucifixion, and who were tricked into acting in accord with God’s secret plot. Simply put, the Archons must designate the hostile powers of the sublunary world. They were the ones who crucified the Lord of Glory.

(my bold)
Giuseppe
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Re: Prof Arthur Droge agrees with dr. Carrier about an outer space crucifixion in the original Ascension of Isaiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Interesting is also what says in note 3 of p. 1:

3 Ƥ46 uniquely reads τὸν κύριον τῆς δόξης αὐτῶν (“the Lord of their glory” or “their glorious Lord”), the αὐτῶν referring to whomever the Archons are.

The angelic Archons are going to kill the same Creator of the "glory" of the angelic Archons. This remembers a lot the fate of Sabaoth in Pistis Sophia: he also was punished by demonic Yaldabaoth (his own father!) after his "conversion".
Giuseppe
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Re: Prof Arthur Droge agrees with dr. Carrier about an outer space crucifixion in the original Ascension of Isaiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Interesting, apart the ‘outer space coming out’ of prof Droge, is the following point:

Insofar as this myth is conceived of as a cosmic, rather than historical, drama, it was probably deployed to counter the reality of its earthly or historical version, namely, the story of Christ’s physical passion. We see this clearly at Ascen. Isa. 9:13, where the malevolent powers of the Firmament “think that he is flesh and a man.”

From the POV of the original author of the Ascension of Isaiah, then, the historicist view of Jesus was the fruit of a misunderstanding by outsiders, and the latter included the same people who interpreted the crucifixion as ‘a scandal’ or ‘a folly’. Hence, according to that author, Paul was embarrassed in 1 Corinthians 1:23 not by a Roman crucifixion, but by the fact that the crucifixion was interpreted wrongly as a Roman (earthly) crucifixion.
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