Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

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Giuseppe
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Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Giuseppe »

I had thought that Matthew 27:52-53 is banally anti-marcionite:

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

...but then, reading Robert Ambelain, I find a possible historical nucleus in the strategy of some Zealots of hiding themselves in cemeteries, only to suddenly rise up against the Romans.

to rise up = to resurrect.

This is a similar case to the Barabbas episode: anti-marcionite episode (Barabbas being the Jesus who was never called the Jewish Messiah), or a historical nucleus (Jesus b. Ananias being released by a Roman Governor) ?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Giuseppe »

Apologist Quadratus claimed that he knew personally some of these 'zombies' still alive.
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by davidmartin »

this is given the gnosticising treatment in the NHL 2nd treatise of the great seth
The veil of his temple he tore with his hands. There was a trembling that overcame the chaos of the earth, for the souls that were in the sleep below were released, and they arose. They walked about boldly, having shed jealousy of ignorance and unlearnedness beside the dead tombs having put on the new human; having come to know that perfect blessed one of the eternal and incomprehensible father and the infinite light, which is I
compared to the orthodox version:
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many
there's obviously a connection here but the context is entirely different

however Ephesians agrees more closely with the gnostics than it does with Matthew:
For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father... in other generations was not made known to the children of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit
Ken Olson
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:41 am Apologist Quadratus claimed that he knew personally some of these 'zombies' still alive.
Quadratus:

Our Saviour's works, moreover, were always present: for they were real, consisting of those who had been healed of their diseases, those who had been raised from the dead; who were not only seen whilst they were being healed and raised up, but were afterwards constantly present. Nor did they remain only during the sojourn of the Saviour on earth, but also a considerable time after His departure; and, indeed, some of them have survived even down to our own times.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ratus.html

The fact that Quadratus mentions those who had been raised from the dead alongside those who were healed of diseases suggests that he meant those whom Jesus had raised during his ministry (Jairus' daughter, the Widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus), not those who rose from their tombs at Jesus' death on the cross in Matt 27:50-53. Also, he does not say he met any of them, only that *some* them (which may not have included any of the resurrected ones) survived to his own time, which would mean only he thought they had survived to the time of his birth.

Best,

Ken
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:48 am The fact that Quadratus mentions those who had been raised from the dead alongside those who were healed of diseases suggests that he meant those whom Jesus had raised during his ministry (Jairus' daughter, the Widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus), not those who rose from their tombs at Jesus' death on the cross in Matt 27:50-53.
very hardly so. It is evident that Quadratus meant the zombies of Matthew 27:52-53. Your suggestion is very improbable.
Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:48 am Also, he does not say he met any of them, only that *some* them (which may not have included any of the resurrected ones) survived to his own time, which would mean only he thought they had survived to the time of his birth.
absolutely irrelevant, pro or against my point above.

So Doudna about Quadratus' zombies:

Obviously the full Aretas V argument needs to be published and then vetted in published form (I intend to do that). As for “anything else”, one more thing relating to dating, and that is a point brought out by Frans Vermeiren in his book arguing that Jesus ben Sapphat = Jesus (Chronological Revision of the Origins of Christianity, 2017), also brought out by a few other writers: that Quadratus the Christian philosopher, writing ca. time of Hadrian/ca. 120s ce, referred to a contemporary existence of persons alive who had been resurrected from the dead by Jesus (Quadratus quoted Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 4.3.1-2)

Never mind the objection that dead people do not come back to life. That can be dismissed as a non-issue and irrelevant, given how abundantly beliefs and stories existed of people who came back to life, in times before medical knowledge and embalming. Supposedly a certain percentage of all dead people buried in medieval cemeteries came back to life, as seen by evidences of struggle of corpses in caskets later dug up. The point of interest in Quadratus’s statement is the chronological one. Survivors of the Revolt said to have been healed and raised from the dead by Jesus–Josephus refers to Jewish warriors hiding in tombs–are compatible with being claimed to still be alive in the time of Trajan or Hadrian, but incompatible with a 30 CE Jesus, on chronological grounds. One could have Quadratus mistakenly or knowingly referring to non-existent persons in the time of Hadrian, or persons who are supernaturally physically immortal or the like, and a 30 CE Jesus, but that is not an obvious reading of Quadratus’s sense, which more naturally is that persons of normal human lifespan who had been healed or raised from the dead by Jesus, in some cases, were allegedly still alive at the time of Quadratus’s letter. Papias also refers to the same. No mention is made of these persons having supernaturally extended lifespans, demigod status or the like; the reference is to past miracles in the time of Jesus of which ordinary human persons are claimed to be living contemporary testimonies to such having occurred (in the past).

(my bold)
Ken Olson
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:03 am
Ken Olson wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:48 am The fact that Quadratus mentions those who had been raised from the dead alongside those who were healed of diseases suggests that he meant those whom Jesus had raised during his ministry (Jairus' daughter, the Widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus), not those who rose from their tombs at Jesus' death on the cross in Matt 27:50-53.
very hardly so. It is evident that Quadratus meant the zombies of Matthew 27:52-53. Your suggestion is very improbable.

Our Saviour's works, moreover, were always present: for they were real, consisting of those who had been healed of their diseases, those who had been raised from the dead; who were not only seen whilst they were being healed and raised up, but were afterwards constantly present. Nor did they remain only during the sojourn of the Saviour on earth, but also a considerable time after His departure; and, indeed, some of them have survived even down to our own times. (Fragment of Quadratus)


Matt 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

Giuseppe,

Do you have any supporting argumentation that would serve to demonstrate to other people who do not initially share your opinion that it is evident that Quadratus was referring to the bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep but were raised to life from Matt 27:52 that this is, in fact, the case?

To all appearances, when your opinion is contested, you are merely doubling down on your claim by insisting on it emphatically, and are not actually providing evidence for it at all. To be fair, I suppose you are not the only one on the list that argues that way.

Also, could you tell me how you made the calculation that my suggestion that Quadratus was probably referring to the people that Jesus' had raised to life during his ministry is very improbable? What makes it improbable? In support of my claim I pointed out that Quadratus refers to those who had been raised from the dead alongside those who had been healed of diseases (presumably during Jesus' ministry) and calls these two classes together our Savior's works. This would appear to apply much better to those who had been miraculously raised during Jesus' ministry. Do you have a better explanation for why he should mention the two together, or for why the saints who rose in Matt 27.52 would be called a work of the Savior? Further, why would Quadratus say "Nor did they remain only during the sojourn of the Saviour on earth" about those raised in Matt 27.52 when they did not rise until the moment of Jesus' death. It would seem to apply much better to those who were raised during Jesus' earthly ministry (i.e., Jairus' daughter, the Widow of Nain's son, and Lazarus).

If you wish to be convincing to other people (and it's by no means clear that you do), you may have to deal with the arguments for the opposing claim, and present evidence for your own, rather than just using strong language.

Best,

Ken

P.S. Yes, I realize that following up on this with Giuseppe is probably a waste of time, but I thought I would give him the chance to justify his claim.
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:55 am
Giuseppe,

Do you have any supporting argumentation that would serve to demonstrate to other people who do not initially share your opinion that it is evident that Quadratus was referring to the bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep but were raised to life from Matt 27:52 that this is, in fact, the case?
The answer is more simple than you can think, then: the people described as risen by the Gospel Jesus before the crucifixion are in number of: 2.
  • Lazarus.
  • the Widow of Nain's son
The daughter of Jairus doesn't count (really shoud I justify why she doesn't count?).

"those who had been raised from the dead; who were not only seen whilst they were being healed and raised up, but were afterwards constantly present" fits perfectly, as description, the zombies on the streets of Jerusalem, rather than only the 2 (!) cats above.

At any case, your point is irrelevant: if Quadratus saw someone who reported the news about a Lazarus still alive in his time, then the Vermeiren's point remains: the extreme longevity of this risen Lazarus is unexpected under the traditional chronology.
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:04 am
Ken Olson wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:55 am
Giuseppe,

Do you have any supporting argumentation that would serve to demonstrate to other people who do not initially share your opinion that it is evident that Quadratus was referring to the bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep but were raised to life from Matt 27:52 that this is, in fact, the case?
The answer is more simple than you can think, then: the people described as risen by the Gospel Jesus before the crucifixion are in number of: 2.
  • Lazarus.
  • the Widow of Nain's son
The daughter of Jairus doesn't count (really shoud I justify why she doesn't count?).
Giuseppe,

Yes, that is certainly simple, but:

1) You did not address the fact that the risen saints were not present during Jesus' sojourn on earth, nor how the risen saints in Matt 27.52 were works of the Savior in a category with those healed of disease)..

2) If we were to exclude Jairus daughter (and I am by no means convinced we should), that would still leave two people that were raised by Jesus during his sojourn on earth, and you have not shown why it is would be improbable that Quadratus would be referring to them.

3) If you think excluding Jairus' daughter would help your case, by all means address why she should be excluded (but beware of unintended consequences).

"those who had been raised from the dead; who were not only seen whilst they were being healed and raised up, but were afterwards constantly present" fits perfectly, as description, the zombies on the streets of Jerusalem, rather than only the 2 (!) cats above.
At any case, your point is irrelevant: if Quadratus saw someone who reported the news about a Lazarus still alive in his time, then the Vermeiren's point remains: the extreme longevity of this risen Lazarus is unexpected under the traditional chronology.
I grant you I did not address that particular issue in my immediately prior post, but I certainly can do so (and did in a previous post, which you also claimed was irrelevant). When Quadratus says, "some of them have survived even down to our own times" there are several alternatives to your highly speculative claim that he must be referring to events of c. 70 rather than events of c. 30. First (and I think more probably) the claim that they survived "down to ur times" would mean only that they survived into the lifetimes of some people then living, like the modern expression "within living memory" The reign of Hadrian began in 115 CE; the Catholic Encyclopedia dates Quadratus apology to 124 or 125, though I do not know the basis for that. There is nothing terribly unexpected about someone alive in 30 CE overlapping in lifetime with people alive in 124 or 125. (Anecdotally, as a child I spoke to my grandfather, and he had served in the first World War, which ended in 1918). Second, Quadratus could have believed some of the people who received miracles from Jesus lived an unusually long time. Ancient author's attributing unusually long lifespans to particular people (or animals) is not particularly unusual.

Best,

Ken
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Re: Zombies resurrection in Matthew: an anti-marcionite episode or a historical nucleus?

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:54 am
1) You did not address the fact that the risen saints were not present during Jesus' sojourn on earth, nor how the risen saints in Matt 27.52 were works of the Savior in a category with those healed of disease)..
they surely were. Cause-effect, isn't it? Jesus dies, and therefore the zombies arose. The same cause-effect in action at the death of James the Just: he dies, and therefore Vespasian besieged Jerusalem.
Ken Olson wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:54 am 2) If we were to exclude Jairus daughter (and I am by no means convinced we should), that would still leave two people that were raised by Jesus during his sojourn on earth, and you have not shown why it is would be improbable that Quadratus would be referring to them.
It seems clear to me that Quadratus wants to make it believe that the number of people healed and/or risen is very much high. THe high number of healings and resurrections worked by Jesus is in the interest of the his apology, afterall.
Ken Olson wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:54 am 3) If you think excluding Jairus' daughter would help your case, by all means address why she should be excluded (but beware of unintended consequences).
Jesus himself says that she was not dead.



Ken Olson wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:54 am I grant you I did not address that particular issue in my immediately prior post, but I certainly can do so (and did in a previous post, which you also claimed was irrelevant). When Quadratus says, "some of them have survived even down to our own times" there are several alternatives to your highly speculative claim that he must be referring to events of c. 70 rather than events of c. 30. First (and I think more probably) the claim that they survived "down to ur times" would mean only that they survived into the lifetimes of some people then living, like the modern expression "within living memory" The reign of Hadrian began in 115 CE; the Catholic Encyclopedia dates Quadratus apology to 124 or 125, though I do not know the basis for that. There is nothing terribly unexpected about someone alive in 30 CE overlapping in lifetime with people alive in 124 or 125. (Anecdotally, as a child I spoke to my grandfather, and he had served in the first World War, which ended in 1918). Second, Quadratus could have believed some of the people who received miracles from Jesus lived an unusually long time. Ancient author's attributing unusually long lifespans to particular people (or animals) is not particularly unusual.
Quadratus is talking about extreme longevity of risen and ordinary people, not of healed and/or divine people.

As to your hypothesis of a survival only "within living memory", it sounds too much modern, in my view, as idea. As someone who, talking about the recent death of his brother, said that now his brother lives "in him", meaning not physically but spiritually. Was Quadratus able to assume a such subtle distinction? I doubt. And surely even when they talk about a Jesus who "lives", people as Quadratus mean that Jesus lives physically in the upper heavens, now.
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