Marcion and Thomas in all of Luke

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mlinssen
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Marcion and Thomas in all of Mark

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To test the theory further, I will be doing the parallels between Marcion and Mark.
The hypothesis is that the Marcionite material present in Luke should be present in Mark as well, although it should be less because Luke has to add to it, under the assumption that each next writer adds from the previous version as well as from the source (so, likewise for the Thomasine material) next to adding their own.
That's an impossible hypothesis really, because we only know Marcion from Luke. But anyway, it is an exercise that has to be done

There shouldn't be Marcionite material in Mark that is not in Luke but that is equally impossible to demonstrate. What is possible to demonstrate is which Thomasine material is in Mark, and likewise it should be less than what is in Luke: but the real information will be in the Marcionite Thomas material in Mark (the pieces that we got from all of Luke) and the Thomasine material in Mark (any Thomasine material).
Given that Mark added Judas as a traitor and expanded his role (although Matthew will maximise that) it must have been known "at the time of Mark" that it was Thomas which was the source to Marcion's.
So Mark should have all the Thomas material in Marcion, plus some (but not all) that is in Luke

How useful is this exercise, really?
It is an exercise that must be done, such is for sure. I'll have to say that this is one of those rare things that I think about, then get confused about its complexity, and just do it anyway in order to get me through it.
  • The text in the OP is the basis: Marcion + Thomas
  • New Markan material will be orange
  • Material that is absent in Mark is [ in between square brackets ]

Having processed the first half, it certainly looks to be not in line with my theory. Luke 6, 7 and 10-12 are missing it seems, in Mark.
But a very interesting find is in 8:45-48, where it is highly likely that Mark has a magical scene where the mere touch of Jesus' clothes heals people, whereas Luke turns that into a physical touch of Jesus himself, highly likely to combat the alleged docetism of Marcion.
Yet we see how Roth reconstructs Marcion as having said "who touched me" andsoforth whereas I can't find anything in the Greek and Latin text that actually claims that Marcion has any of this

Luke 3.1-38, John the baptist, the preaching and imprisonment of John, the baptism and genealogy of Jesus.

[ 1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor [Marcion: in the times of Pontius Pilate] of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, ]

Luke 4.31-37, teaching with authority and the exorcism of the Capernaum demoniac.

31 He came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee. He was teaching them on the Sabbath day in the synagogue, (M 1:21)
32 And [Marcion: but] they were all astonished at his teaching, for his word was with authority. (M 1:22 and not as the scribes.)
34 saying, “Ah! what have we to do with you, Jesus ~of Nazareth~? Have you come to destroy us? I know you who you are: the Holy One of God!” (M 1:24)
35 Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” (M 1:25) When the demon had thrown him down in the middle of them, he came out of him, having done him no harm. (M 1:26)

Luke 4.16-30, rejection at Nazareth.

16 He came to Nazara [Marcion: Nazareth], where he had been brought up. (M 6:1 and his disciples followed him) He entered, as was his custom, into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. (M 6:2)
[ + 23 He said to them, “Doubtless you will tell me this parable, (31) Physician, heal yourself! (-31) Whatever we have heard done at Capernaum, do also here in your hometown.’ ” ]
+ 24 He said, “Most certainly I tell you, (31) no prophet is acceptable in his hometown. (-31) (M 6:4 and among his own relatives, and in his own house)
[ 29 They rose up, threw him out of the city, and led him to the brow of the hill that their city was built on, that they might throw him off the cliff. ]
[ 30 But he, passing through the middle of them, went his way. ]

Luke 4.38-44, the healing of the mother-in-law of Peter, the evening healings, departing from Capernaum, and in the synagogues.

40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any sick with various diseases brought them to him (M 1:32); [ and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them. ]
41 Demons also came out of many, crying out, and saying,You are the Christ, the Son of God!Rebuking them, he didn’t allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ. (M 1:34-)
42 When it was day, (M 1:35 Early in the morning, while it was still dark) he departed and went into an uninhabited place, (M 1:35 and prayed there) and the multitudes looked for him, and came to him, and held on to him, so that he wouldn’t go away from them. (M 1:35-37*)
43 But he said to them,I must preach the good news of God’s Kingdom to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent.” (M 1:38)

Luke 5.1-11, the call of the first disciples.

2 He saw two boats standing by the lake, but the fishermen had gone out of them, and were washing their nets. (M 1:16-)
[ 9 For he was amazed, and all who were with him, at the catch of fish which they had caught; ]
10 and so also were James and John, sons of Zebedee, (M 1:18) [ who were partners with Simon ]. Jesus said to Simon, “Don’t be afraid. For from now on you will be catching people alive.” (M 1:17*)
11 When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything, and followed him. (M 1:18*)

Luke 5.12-16, the healing of a leper.

12 [ While he was in one of the cities, behold,] there was a man full of leprosy. [ When he saw Jesus, he fell on his face, and begged him,] saying, “[ Lord, ] if you want to, you can make me clean.” (M 1:40)
13 Being moved with compassion He stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, “I want to. Be made clean.” (M 1:41) Immediately the leprosy left him. (M 1:42 and he was made clean.)
14 He commanded him to tell no one, “But go your way, (M1:43*) and show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift for your cleansing according to what Moses commanded, for a testimony to them [Marcion: so that this might be for a testimony to you].” (M 1:44)

Luke 5.17-26, the healing of a paralytic.

7 On one of those days, he was teaching; and there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by (M 2:2-), [ who had come out of every village of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. The power of the Lord was with him to heal them. ]
18 Behold, men brought a paralyzed man on a cot, and they sought to bring him in to lay before Jesus. (M 2:3-4*)
20 Seeing their faith, he said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” (M 2:5)
21 The scribes [ and the Pharisees ] began to reason in their hearts, saying, “Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” (M 2:6-7)
24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (he said to the paralyzed man), (M 2:10) “I tell you, arise, and take up your little cot [Marcion: take up your mat], and go to your house.” (M 2:11)
26 Amazement took hold on all, and they glorified God.[ They were filled with fear,] saying, “We have seen strange things today.” (M 2:13)

Luke 5.27-32, the call of Levi, tax collectors and sinners.

27 After these things he went out, and saw a tax collector named Levi sitting at the tax office, and said to him, “Follow me!” (M 2:14)
+ 30 (14) Their scribes and the Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” (M 2:16)
+ 31 Jesus answered them, “Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick do. (14) (M 2:17)
32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (M 2:17)

Luke 5.33-39, the controversy over fasting.

+ 33 They said to him, (104) “Why do John’s disciples often fast and pray, likewise also the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours eat and drink?” (M 2:18*)
+ 34 He said to them, The friends of the bridechamber cannot fast as long as [Marcion: while] the bridegroom is with them, can they? (M 2:19)
+ 35 But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them. Then they will fast in those days.” (-104) (M 2:20)
+ 36 [ He also told a parable to them.] (47)“No one puts a piece of unshrunk fabric from a new garment on an old garment, or else the patch shrinks and he will tear the new, and also the piece from the new will not match the old. (M 2:21 and a worse hole is made)
+ 37 No one puts new wine into old wine skins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. (M 2:22)
+ 38 But new wine must be put into fresh wine skins, (M 2:22) [ and both are preserved. ]
[ + 39 No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, (-47) for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ” ]

Luke 6.1-11, plucking grain on the sabbath, the healing of a man with a withered hand.

1 Now on the second Sabbath after the first, he was going through the grain fields. His disciples plucked the heads of grain (M 2:23) [ and ate, rubbing them in their hands. ]
2 But some of the Pharisees said to them, “Why do you do that which is not lawful to do on the Sabbath day?” (M 2:24)
3 Jesus, answering them, said,Haven’t you read what David did when he had need and he was hungry, he, and those who were with him; (M2:25)
4 how he entered into God’s house (M 2:26 at the time of Abiathar the high priest) on the Sabbath, [ and took] and ate the show bread, and gave also to those who were with him, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests alone?” (M 2:26)
5 He said to them, “The Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” (M 2:27-28 He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.)
6 It also happened on another Sabbath that he entered into the synagogue and taught. There was a man there, and his right hand was withered. (M 3:1)
7 [ The scribes and the Pharisees ] watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, that they might find an accusation against him. (M 3:2)
9 Then Jesus said to them, “I will ask you something: Is it lawful on the Sabbaths to do good, or to do harm [Marcion: not]? To save a life, or to kill?” (M 3:4)

Luke 6.12-26, the commission of the twelve, the sermon on the plain, a great multitude, the beatitudes, the woes.

12 In these days, he went out [Marcion: ascended] to the mountain [ to pray, and he continued all night in prayer to God. ] (M 3:13)
13 [ When it was day, he called his disciples, and from them ] he chose twelve, [ whom he also named apostles: ] (M 3:14-15 and to have authority to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons:)
14 Simon, whom he also named Peter; Andrew, his brother; James; John; Philip; Bartholomew; (M 4:16-18)
16 Judas the son of James; and Judas Iscariot, who also became a traitor. (M 4:19 Then he came into a house.)
[ 17 He came down with [Marcion: among] them, and stood on a level place, with a crowd of his disciples, and a great number of the people from all Judea and Jerusalem, and the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon and beyond, who came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases; ]
[ 19 All the multitude sought to touch him, for power came out of him and healed them all. ]
[+ 20 He lifted up his eyes to his disciples, and said, (54)“Blessed are you [Marcion: the] who are poor, God’s Kingdom is yours [Marcion: theirs(-54)]. ]
[+ 21 (69) Blessed are you [Marcion: they] who hunger now, for you [Marcion: they] will be filled. (-69) Blessed are you [Marcion: they] who weep now, for you [Marcion: they] will laugh. ]
[+ 22 (68) Blessed are you when men shall hate you, and when they shall exclude (-68) and mock you, and throw out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake.
[ 23 Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven, for their fathers did the same thing to the prophets. ]
[ 24 “But woe to you who are rich! For you have received your consolation. ]
[ 25 Woe to you, you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. ]

Luke 6.27-36, on revenge and enemies.

[ 27 “But I tell you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse [Marcion: hate] you, and pray for those who mistreat you. ]
[ 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer also the other; and from him who takes away your cloak, don’t withhold your coat also [Marcion: your coat, offer also your cloak to him]. ]
[ 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and don’t ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again. ]
[ 31 “As you would like people to do [Marcion: happen] to you from men, do exactly so to them also. ]
+ 34 (95) If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back again, (-95) what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive back as much.
[ 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and you are to lend without despairing, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High [Marcion: of God]; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil. ]
[ 36 “Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is ~also~ merciful to you. ]

Luke 6.37-49, on judgment, by their fruits, do as I say, the parable of the wise and foolish builders.

[ 37 Don’t judge, and [Marcion: so that] you won’t be judged. Don’t condemn, and [Marcion: so that] you won’t be condemned. Set free, and you will be set free. ]
[ 38 “Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you.” ]
[+ 39 He spoke a parable to them. (34) “Can the blind guide the blind? Won’t they both fall into a pit? (-34) ]
[ 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. ]
[+ 41 (26) Why do you see the speck of chaff that is in your brother’s eye, but don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye? ]
[+ 42 Or how can you tell your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck of chaff that is in your eye,’ when you yourself don’t see the beam that is in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck of chaff that is in your brother’s eye. (-26) ]
[+ 43 (43) For there is no good tree that produces rotten fruit; nor again a rotten tree that produces good fruit. (-43) ]
[+ 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. (45) For people don’t gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. ]
+ 45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings out that which is good, and the evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings out that which is evil, for out of the abundance of the heart, his mouth speaks. (-45) (M 7:20-21*)

Luke 7.1-17, the healing at the request of a centurion, the raising of the dead son in Nain.

[ 2 A certain centurion’s servant, who was dear to him, was sick and at the point of death.
[ 9 When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude who followed him, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith, no, not in Israel.”
[ 12 Now when he came near to the gate of the city, behold, one who was dead was carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. Many people of the city were with her.
[ 14 He came near and touched the coffin, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I tell you, arise!”
[ 15 He who was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he gave him to his mother.
[ 16 Fear took hold of all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited his people!”

Luke 7.18-35, the inquiry of John the baptist.

[ 18 The disciples of John told him about all these things. John, in prison, calling to himself two of his disciples, ]
[ 19 sent them to Jesus, saying, “Go and ask him, ‘Are you the one who is coming, or should we look for another?’” ]
[ 20 When the men had come to him, they said, “John the Baptizer has sent us to you, saying, ‘Are you he who comes, or should we look for another?’” ]
[ 22 Jesus answered them,Go and tell John the things which you have seen and heard: that the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. ]
[ 23 Blessed is he who finds no occasion for stumbling in me.” ]
[+ 24 When John’s messengers had departed, he began to tell the multitudes about John, (78) “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? ]
[+ 25 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are gorgeously dressed, and live delicately, are in kings’ courts. ]
[+ 26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? (-78) Yes, I tell you, and much more than a prophet. ]
[ 27 This is he of whom it is written, ‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ ]
[+ 28 “For I tell you, (46) among those who are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptizer, yet he who is least in God’s Kingdom is greater than he.” (-46) ]
[+ 31 (21) “To what then should I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? ]
[+ 32 They are like children who sit in the marketplace (-21)
, and call to one another, saying, ‘We piped to you, and you didn’t dance. We mourned, and you didn’t weep.’ ]

Luke 7.36-50, the anointing of Jesus.

[ 36 One of the Pharisees invited him to eat with him. He entered into the Pharisee’s house, and sat at the table. ]
[ 37 Behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that he was reclining in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster jar of ointment. ]
[ 38 Standing behind at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears, and she wiped them with the hair of her head, kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. ]
[ 44 Turning to the woman, he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered into your house, and you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head. ]
[ 45 You gave me no kiss, but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. ]
[ 46 You didn’t anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. ]
[ 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.” ]
[ 48 He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” ]
[ 50 He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” ]

Luke 8.1-18, the female followers of Jesus, by the lake, the parable of the sower and explanation, the mysteries of the kingdom, on the nature of parables.

2 and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out;
3 and Joanna, the wife of Chuzas, Herod’s steward; Susanna; and many others; who also served them [Marcion: him] from their possessions.
4 When a great multitude came together, and people from every city were coming to him, he spoke by a parable. (M 4:1-2)
+ 5 (9) “The farmer went out to sow [ his seed]. As he sowed, some fell along the road, [ and it was trampled under foot,] and the birds of the sky devoured it. (M 4:3-4)
+ 6 Other seed fell on the rock, and as soon as it grew, it withered away, because it had no moisture. (M 4:5-6 5 Others fell on the rocky ground, where it had little soil, and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of soil. 6 When the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.)
+ 7 Other fell amid the thorns, and the thorns grew with it, and choked it.
and it yielded no fruit
+ 8 Other fell into the good ground, and yielded fruit and grew, and produced thirty times, some sixty times, and some one hundred times as much fruit.” [ As he said these things, he called out,] “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” (9)
+ 10 (62) He said, “To you it is given to know the mysteries (-62) of God’s Kingdom, but to the rest in parables; that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’ (M 4:11-12* and their sins should be forgiven them)
+ 16 (33) “No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a container, or puts it under a bed; but puts it on a stand, that those who enter in may see the light. (-33) (M 4:21-)
+ 17 (6) For nothing is hidden that will not be revealed; nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. (-6) (M 4:22)
+ 18 Be careful therefore how you hear. (M 4:23!!!) (41) For whoever has, to him will be given; and whoever doesn’t have, from him will be taken away even that which he thinks he has.” (-41) (M 4:25)

Luke 8.19-25, the family of Jesus, the calming of the lake.

20 Some people told him, “Your mother and your brothers stand outside, desiring to see you.” (M 3:32)
+ 21 (99) But he answered them,My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God, and do it. [Marcion: Who is my mother and who are my brothers except these who hear my words and do them?]” (-99) (M 3:33-35*)
22 Now on one of those days, he entered into a boat, himself and his disciples, and he said to them, “Let’s go over to the other side of the lake.” So they launched out. (M 4:35)
23 But as they sailed, he fell asleep. A wind storm came down on the lake, and they were taking on dangerous amounts of water. (M 4:37-38)
24 They came to him, and awoke him, saying, “Master, master, we are dying!” He awoke, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water [Marcion: sea], and they ceased, and it was calm. (M 4:39)
25 He said to them, “Where is your faith?” Being afraid they marveled, saying to one another,Who is this then, that he [Marcion: who] commands even the winds and the water [Marcion: sea], and they obey him?” (M 4:40-41)

Luke 8.26-39, the exorcism of the Gadarene demoniac.

27 When Jesus stepped ashore, a certain man out of the city who had demons for a long time met him. He wore no clothes, and didn’t live in a house, but in the tombs. (M 5:2-5)
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, (M 5:6) and with a loud voice said, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torment me!” (M 5:7)
30 Jesus asked him,What is your name?He said, “Legion,” for many demons had entered into him. (M 5:9*)
31 They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss. (M 5:10)
32 Now there was there a herd of many pigs feeding on the mountain, and they begged him that he would allow them to enter into those. Then he allowed them. (M 5:11-13*)

Luke 8.40-56, the raising of the daughter of Jairus, the healing of a hemorrhaging woman.

42 for he had an only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she was dying. ~But it happened that as he~ [Marcion: ~they~] ~went~, the multitudes pressed against him. (M 5:23-24*)
43 A certain woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years, who had spent all her living on physicians and could not be healed by any (M 5:25-26)
44 came behind him, and touched the fringe of his cloak. Immediately the flow of her blood stopped. (M 5:27-29*)
45 Jesus [Marcion: the Lord] said, “Who touched me?” When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, “Master, the multitudes press and jostle you, and you say, ‘Who touched me?’” (M 5:30-31)
[ 46 But Jesus said,Someone did touch me, for I also perceived that power has gone out of me.” ]
48 He said to her, “Daughter, cheer up. Your faith has made you well. Go in peace.” (M 5:34 and be cured of your disease)

Luke 9.1-11, the mission of the twelve, John the baptist risen.

1 He called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. (M 6:7)
[+ 2 (14) He sent them out to preach God’s Kingdom and to heal the sick. ]
3 He said to them, “Take nothing for your journey—no staffs, nor wallet, nor bread, nor money. (M 6:8*!) Don’t have two coats each. (M 6:9*)
+ 4 Into whatever house you enter, stay there, and depart from there. (M 6:10)
+ 5 As many as don’t receive you, (-14) when you depart from that city, shake off even the dust from your feet for a testimony against them.” (M 6:11)
6 They departed and went throughout cities and the villages(M 6:12, 13 They cast out many demons, and anointed many with oil who were sick, and healed them.),[ preaching the Good News and healing everywhere. ]
7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him; and he was very perplexed, because it was being said by some that John had risen from the dead, (M 6:14)
8 and by some that Elijah had appeared, and by others that one of the old prophets had risen again. (M 6:15)

Luke 9.12-17, the feeding of the five thousand.

12 The day began to wear away; and the twelve came and said to him, “Send the multitude away, that they may go into the surrounding villages and farms, and lodge, and get food, for we are here in a deserted place.” (M 6:35-36)
13 But he said to them, “You give them something to eat.” They said, “We have no more than five loaves and two fish, unless we should go and buy food for all these people.” (M 6:37-38)
14 For they were about five thousand men. He said to his disciples, “Make them sit down in groups of about fifty each.” (M 6:39-40)
16 He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to the sky, he blessed them, broke them, and gave them to the disciples to set before the multitude. (M 6:41 and he divided the two fish among them all)
17 They ate and were all filled. (M 6:42) They gathered up twelve baskets of broken pieces that were left over. (M 6:43)

Luke 9.18-27, who do you say that I am, the first passion prediction, take up your cross, finding and losing, before my father.

18 As he was praying alone, the disciples were with him, and he asked them,Who do the multitudes [Marcion: men] say that I, the son of man, am?” (M 8:27*)
19 They answered, “‘John the Baptizer,but others say, ‘Elijah,and others, that one of the old prophets has risen again.” (M 8:28)
+ 20 (13) He said to them,But who do you say that I am?Peter answered,The Christ of God [Marcion: you are the Christ].” (-13) (M 8:29)
21 But he warned them, and commanded them to tell this to no one, (M 8:30)
22 saying,The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.” (M 8:31)
+ 23 (55) He said to all, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. (-55) (M 8:34)
24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but [Marcion: and] whoever will lose his life [Marcion: it] for my sake and the sake of the Good News, will save it. (M 8:35)
26 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man [Marcion: I] be ashamed, when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. (M 8:38)

Luke 9.28-36, the transfiguration.

28 About eight days after these sayings, he took with him Peter, John, and James, and went up onto the mountain to pray. (M 9:2)
29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face was altered, and his clothing became white and dazzling. such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. (LOL) (M 9:3*)
30 Behold, two men were talking with him, who were Moses and Elijah, (M 9:4)
31 who appeared in glory, [ and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. ]
[ 32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they were fully awake, they saw his glory, and the two men who stood with him. ]
33 As they were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let’s make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah,” (M 9:5) not knowing what he said. (M 9:6 for they were very afraid)
34 While he said these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, [ and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud. ] (M 9:7)
35 A voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my beloved Son. Listen to him!” (M 9:7)

Luke 9.37-50, the exorcism of a boy, the second passion prediction, receiving the sender, for or against us.

40 I begged your disciples to cast it out, and they couldn’t cast it out.” (M 9:18)
41 Jesus answered them,Faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and how long shall I bear with you? Bring your son here.” (M 9:19)
44 “Let these words sink into your ears, for the Son of Man will be delivered up into the hands of men.” (M 9:31)
46 An argument arose among them about which of them was the greatest. (M 9:34)
48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this little child in my name receives me. Whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For whoever is least among you all, this one will be great.” (M 9:37)

Luke 9.51-62, journeying to Jerusalem, fire from heaven, following Jesus.

[ 54 When his disciples, James and John, saw this, they said, “Lord, do you want us to command fire to come down from the sky, and destroy them, just as Elijah did?” ]
[ 55 But he turned and rebuked them, “You don’t know of what kind of spirit you are. ]
[ 57 As they went on the way, a certain man said to him,I want to follow you wherever you go, Lord.” ]
[+ 58 (86) Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” (-86) ]
[ 59 He said to another, “Follow me!” But he said, “Lord, allow me first to go and bury my father.” ]
[ 60 But Jesus said to him,Leave the dead to bury their own dead, but you go and announce God’s Kingdom.” ]
[ 61 Another also said, “I want to follow you, Lord, but first allow me to say good-bye to those who are at my house.” ]
[ 62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for God’s Kingdom.” ]

Luke 10.1-20, the mission of the seventy, woe to the cities, receiving the sender, the fall of Satan.

[ 1 Now after these things, the Lord also appointed seventy others, and sent them two by two ahead of him into every city and place where he was about to come.
+ 2 (73) Then he said to them, “The harvest is indeed plentiful, but the laborers are few. Pray therefore to the Lord of the harvest, that he may send out laborers into his harvest. (-73)
[ 4 Carry no purse, nor wallet, neither staff nor sandals. Greet no one on the way.
[+ 5 (14) Into whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house.’
[+ 7 Remain in that same house, eating and drinking the things they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Don’t go from house to house.
[+ 8 Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you.
[+ 9 Heal the sick who are therein, (-14) and tell them,God’s Kingdom has come near to you.’
[ 10 But into whatever city you enter, and they don’t receive you, go out into its streets and say,
[ 11 ‘Even the dust from your city that clings to us, we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that God’s Kingdom has come near to you.’
[ 16 Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me. Whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.
[ 19 Behold, I give you [or: I have given you] authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy. Nothing will in any way hurt you.

Luke 10.21-42, revealed to babes, blessed are your eyes and ears, the greatest commandment, the good Samaritan, Mary and Martha.

[ 21 In that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I thank you and confess [or: praise] you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from [Marcion: that the things which were hidden to] the wise and understanding, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.
[ 22 Turning to the disciples, he said, “All things have been delivered to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is, except the Father, and who the Father is, except the Son [Marcion, however, seems to reverse these clauses], and he to whomever the Son desires to reveal him.
[+ 23 Turning to the disciples, (38) he said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things that you see,
[+ 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see the things which you see, and didn’t see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and didn’t hear them.” (-38)
[ 25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[ 26 He said to him,What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
[+ 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; (25) and your neighbor as yourself.”(-25)
[ 28 He said to him,You have answered [Marcion: spoken] correctly. Do this, and you will live.

Luke 11.1-13, the paternoster, a friend at midnight, ask, seek, knock.

[ 1 When he finished praying in a certain place, one of his [Marcion: the] disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.” ]
[ 2 He said to them, “When you pray, say,~Our~ Father ~in heaven~, may your name be kept holy [Marcion adds a petition for the Holy Spirit: may your Holy Spirit come upon us]. May your Kingdom come. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. ]
[ 3 Give us day by day your daily bread. ]
[ 4 Forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. Bring us not [Marcion: do not let us be brought] into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ ” ]
[ 5 He said to them, “Which of you, if you go to a friend at midnight, and tell him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, ]
[ 7 and he from within will answer and say, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I can’t get up and give it to you’? ]
[ 8 I tell you, although he will not rise and give it to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence, he will get up and give him as many as he needs. ]
[+ 9 “I tell you, keep asking, and it will be given you. (94) Keep seeking, and you will find. Keep knocking, and it will be opened to you. ]
+ 10 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened. (-94) ]
[ 11 “Which [Marcion: for which] of you fathers, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he won’t give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? ]
[ 12 Or if he asks for an egg, he won’t give him a scorpion, will he? ]
[ 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?” ]

Luke 11.14-28, the controversy over Beezebul, the seven spirits, blessed the womb and breasts.

[ 14 He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke; and the multitudes marveled. ]
15 But some of them said,He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of the demons.” (M 3:22)
18 If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. (M 3:26)
[ 19 But if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. ]
[ 20 But if I by God’s finger cast out demons, then God’s Kingdom has come near to you. ]
+ 21 (21) “When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own dwelling, his goods are safe. (21) (M 3:27*)
+ 22 (35) But when someone stronger attacks him and overcomes him, he takes from him his whole armor in which he trusted, and divides his plunder. (35) (M 3:27*)
[+ 27 It came to pass, as he said these things, (79) a certain woman out of the multitude lifted up her voice, and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts which nursed you!” ]
[+ 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and keep [Marcion: do] it.” (-79) ]

Luke 11.29-54, the sign of Jonah, the lamp of the body, woe to the Pharisees and lawyers.

29 When the multitudes were gathering together to him, he began to say,This is an evil generation. It seeks after a sign. No sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah, the prophet.
+ 33 (33) “No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, that those who come in may [see the light [Marcion: it might shine on all]. (-33)
[+ 34 (24) The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore when your eye is good, your whole body is also full of light; but when it is evil, your body also is full of darkness.
[+ 35 Therefore see whether the light that is in you isn’t darkness.
[+ 36 If therefore your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly full of light (24), as when the lamp with its bright shining gives you light.”

[ 37 Now as he spoke, a certain Pharisee asked him to dine with him. He went in, and sat at the table.
[ 38 When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that [Marcion: he, judging within himself, began to ask why] he had not first washed himself before dinner.
[+ 39 The Lord [or: Jesus] said to him,Now you Pharisees (89) cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but your inward part (-89) is full of extortion and wickedness.
[+ 40 You foolish ones, (89) didn’t he who made the outside make the inside also?(-89)
[ 41 But give for gifts [Marcion: your possessions] to the needy those things which are within, and behold, all things will be clean to you.
[+ 42 (102) But woe to you Pharisees! (-102) For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, but you bypass justice and God’s love. You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.
[+ 43 (102) Woe to you Pharisees! (-102) For you love the best seats in the synagogues, and the greetings in the marketplaces.
[ 46 He said,Woe to you lawyers also! For you load men with burdens that are difficult to carry, and you yourselves won’t even lift one finger to help carry [Marcion: touch] those burdens.
[ 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
[ 48 So do you testify and [Marcion: that you do not] consent to the works of your fathers. [?] For they killed them, and you build their tombs.
[+ 52 Woe to you (39) lawyers! For you took away the key of knowledge. You didn’t enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in, you hindered.”(-39)

Luke 12.1-9, the leaven of the Pharisees, fear not, before the angels.

[ 1 Meanwhile, when a multitude of many thousands had gathered together, so much so that they trampled on each other, he began to tell his disciples first of all, “Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. ]
[+ 2 (6) But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known. (-6) ]
[+ 3 (33) Therefore whatever you have said in the darkness will be heard in the light. What you have spoken in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops. (-33) ]
[ 4 “I tell you, my friends, don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do [or: and after that have no further authority over you]. ]
[ 5 But I will warn you whom you should fear. Fear him who after he has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him. ]
[ 8 “For I tell you, everyone who confesses [Marcion: will confess] me before men, the Son of Man [Marcion: I] will also confess before the angels of God; ]
[ 9 but he who denies me in the presence of men will be denied in the presence of the angels of God. ]

Luke 12.10-21, the sin against the spirit, delivered up, who made me judge, the parable of the rich fool.

[+ 10 (44) Everyone who speaks [Marcion: should speak] a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but those who blaspheme [Marcion: should speak] against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. (-44) ]
[ 11 When they bring you before the synagogues, the rulers, and the authorities, don’t be anxious how or what you will answer, or what you will say; ]
[ 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that same hour what you must say.” ]
[+ 13 One of the multitude said to him, (72) “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” ]
[+ 14 But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge ~or an arbitrator~ over you?” (-72) ]
[+ 16 He spoke a parable to them, saying, (63) “The ground of a certain rich man produced abundantly. ]
[+ 17 He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’ ]
[+ 18 He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.
]
[+ 19 I will tell my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, and be merry.”’ ]
[+ 20 “But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. (-63) The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’ ]
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Re: Marcion and Thomas in all of Luke

Post by mlinssen »

Turns out I'm not the only one advancing Marcion as the first gospel.
I really should get out more!

Well, at least I learned something new - chances to which are fairly high, knowing little or next to nothing. The weather was bad anyway these past days (and more lame excuses, etc, etc)

Takeaway then, from this so suddenly exploded and then imploded project?

- I should spend time on v1.8 of my Thomas translation instead of being distracted with digging into matters I know nothing about!

- and we do need a very critical edition of Marcion but perhaps there already is one. I trust Ben to have been impeccable but even if he had been sloppy, I think there is too much assumed by Roth and BeDuhn, yet that there is very little useful and solid to find in the ramblings of the CF (I'll use an abbreviation from now on)

A few remarks based on Tertullian, Philip Schaff translation. I have left footnote numbering intact, easy for looking up stuff

- Judas seems to have been handed his traitor role after Marcion, given the following:
Epiphanius, Panarion 42.11.17: Elenchus 60. What lunacy of Marcion's! Who 'communed' but Judas? And to do what, but to 'deliver' the Saviour?
So at least that's a plus, and indicates that the canonicals knew Thomas (next to Marcion, of course) before publishing their own gospels

- Tertullian attests to the original translation of logion 64:
“A certain man made a great supper, and bade many.”4730 The preparation for the supper is no doubt a figure of the abundant provision4731 of eternal life. I first remark, that strangers, and persons unconnected by ties of relationship, are not usually invited to a supper; but that members of the household and family are more frequently the favoured guests.
The Coptic has strangers, translated with visitors by the biased Lambdins of this world. This is a dead give away of Marcion having the original Thomas for logion 64

- Marcion has Thomas logion 3 and Tertullian gives it away:
The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Now, who will not interpret the words “within you” to mean in your hand, within your power, if you hear, and do the commandment of God? If, however, the kingdom of God lies in His commandment, set before your mind Moses on the other side, according to our antitheses, and you will find the self-same view of the case. “The commandment is not a lofty one, neither is it far off from thee. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?’ nor is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?’ But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, and in thy hands, to do it.
Now where on earth does he get heaven and sea from? That's in Deu 30:12 but how does he get there? He does tell how, but would he really get there, just by the words
The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Really?!

- Looks like Marcion already removed the Father from logion 44
After deterring His disciples from denial of Himself, He adds an admonition to fear blasphemy: “Whosoever shall speak against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him.”
- A fine example of the trustworthiness of the CF is logion 73, where even Luke has "judge and divider" (wrongfully translated with arbitrator)
Who,” says he, “made me a judge over you?”4641
That clearly isn't in Marcion, as the whole judge thing comes from Luke. Still, what we get from Roth et al is

14 But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge ~or an arbitrator~ over you?”

and it shows how reconstruction attempts like these, and like any others perhaps, are nothing more than best guesses, based on best intentions at best

- logion 21 gets an odd twist by Marcion
In the next parable also he makes a flagrant mistake, when he assigns to the person of the Creator that “thief, whose hour, if the father of the family had only known, he would not have suffered his house to be broken through.”4672 How can the Creator wear in any way the aspect of a thief, Lord as He is of all mankind? No one pilfers or plunders his own property, but he4673 rather acts the part of one who swoops down on the things of another, and alienates man from his Lord.4674
The only time that the text says ϫⲉⲥ instead of ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ, and it gets translated into Greek with "father of the family"?
That is one of the possible translations of kurios, as well as ϫⲟⲉⲓⲥ - but it's an interesting exception it would seem

- logion 16 is attested for, in full. And Luke is said to have a word that since has disappeared: sword
“I am come to send fire on the earth.”4685 That4686 most lenient being, the lord who has no hell, not long before had restrained his disciples from demanding fire on the churlish village. Whereas He4687 burnt up Sodom and Gomorrah with a tempest of fire. Of Him the psalmist sang, “A fire shall go out before Him, and burn up His enemies round about.”4688 By Hoses He uttered the threat, “I will send a fire upon the cities of Judah;”4689 and4690 by Isaiah, “A fire has been kindled in mine anger.”
He cannot lie. If it is not He who uttered His voice out of even the burning bush, it can be of no importance4691what fire you insist upon being understood. Even if it be but figurative fire, yet, from the very fact that he takes from my element illustrations for His own sense, He is mine, because He uses what is mine. The similitude of fire must belong to Him who owns the reality thereof. But He will Himself best explain the quality of that fire which He mentioned, when He goes on to say, “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”4692 It is written “a sword,”4693 but Marcion makes an emendation4694 of the word, just as if a division were not the work of the sword. He, therefore, who refused to give peace, intended also the fire of destruction. As is the combat, so is the burning. As is the sword, so is the flame.
The desperate footnote to that is
4693 Pamelius supposes that Tertullian here refers to St. Matthew’s account, where the word is μάχαιραν, on the ground that the MSS. and versions of St. Luke’s Gospel invariably read διαμερισμόν. According to Rigaltius, however, Tertullian means that sword is written in Marcion’s Gospel of Luke, as if the heretic had adulterated the passage. Tertullian no doubt professes to quote all along from the Gospel of Luke, according to Marcion’s reading.

16 said IS : Perhaps they think viz. the(PL) human : have I come to cast of a(n) Peace upon the World and they know not : have I come to cast of some(PL) division upon the earth a(n) fire a(n) sword a(n) War there-be five Indeed will come-to-be in a(n) house there-be three will come-to-be upon two and two upon three the father upon the child and the child upon the father and they will stay to foot they in-case they been-made the(PL) Solitary

That's all folks!

Finished book 4 of Tertullian Against Marcion, Philip Schaff's English.
Undoubtedly, Marcion turned Thomas into a religion.
Undoubtedly, that religion then was stolen by "Christians" and they then claimed that Marcion had stolen it from them.
They created 2 fake arguments to make their case, one of which was predating "their Jesus" so that Marcion "came a century later". The second one was claiming that Marcion had removed what they in fact had added, namely the link to Judaism
But now, how happens it that the Lord has been revealed since the twelfth year of Tiberius Cæsar, while no creation of His at all has been discovered up to the fifteenth of the Emperor Severus;2506
Severus became emperor in 193 CE... which would put the date of this book at 208 CE.
Antoninus Pius was Roman emperor from 138 to 161
...this teacher there is no doubt that he is a heretic of the Antonine period, impious under the pious. Now, from Tiberius to Antoninus Pius, there are about 115 years and 6-1/2 months. Just such an interval do they place between Christ and Marcion
That makes them place Marcion just after Bar Kokhba - and they complain about his "theft" almost a century later?

It is likely that it is exactly the other way around, and that they started to hijack Marcionism after Bar Kokhba. Decade after decade the resistance and criticism against that increased and they finally saw themselves obliged to write a 5-volume book on it, with what I must say a very flimsy book 4 on the actual content of the gospel

It doesn't make much sense to me what they are trying to argue - did Marcion allegedly manage to turn Christianity to his advantage exactly 100 years after the alleged death of the alleged Jesus?
What are they trying to hide here?
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Re: Marcion and Thomas in all of Luke

Post by mlinssen »

Well, done with Marcion.
I won't attempt any reconstruction, it's futile to go by the CF

But it's evident that Thomas served as the base to Marcion, which answers a very big question for me. But why do they write their first big book "against Marcion" almost a century after Marcion allegedly hijacked their religion?
The moment of which would be right after Bar Kokhba, to be precise
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Marcion reconstruction is very dubious

Post by mlinssen »

The reconstruction appears to be very, very faithful

Tertullian:

It was, however, a different reason which He assigned for the silence, even because "the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and scribes, and priests, and be slain, and be raised again the third day." Now, inasmuch as these sufferings were actually foretold for the Creator's Christ (as we shall fully show in the proper place ), so by this application of them to His own case does He prove that it is He Himself of whom they were predicted.

Epiphanus:

Epiphanius, Panarion 42.11.6: <ιϚ>. «Λέγων, δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι». / 16. 'Saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be slain, and be raised after three days.'

Both are quoting from Luke here, likely different versions.
They are not quoting from Marcion, because Epiphanius says:

Scholion 52. Marcion falsified, “He took unto him the twelve and said, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written in the prophets concerning the Son of Man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered and killed, and the third day he shall rise again.” He falsified this in its entirety.
Elenchus 52. To make sure that he would not be upright in anything and, not being upright, would be convicted of tampering in every way. For he concealed the lines to deny what is said of the passion, if you please. But since he later admits that Christ has been crucified, his labor of tampering (with the text) will be labor in vain for him.

Yet what is in the "reconstruction"?

22 saying,The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.

It is very, very puzzling
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Re: Marcion reconstruction is very dubious

Post by Stuart »

mlinssen wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:38 am The reconstruction appears to be very, very faithful // that is Tertullian's reconstruction -sgw
...

22 saying,The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.

It is very, very puzzling
I'm going to disagree with the reconstruction by Tertillian. I think has he wrong or his text corrupted, as presbyteris (πρεσβυτέρων) would constitute a hapax legomenon within the entire Marcionite textual corpus.

My guess is Tertullian while having looked at the text, wrote the passage mindlessly adding a presbyteris et scribis et sacerdotibus "the elders, scribes and chief priests" from his ingrained memory of the text. Either that or a later scribal hand or editor of the version of Tertullian's collection we have inserted the words. I favor the former because it is a slight paraphrase from what we find in the Vulgate or rather independent translation. But of note, the Tertullian and Epiphanius agree on καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι "and after three days rise" (see Mark 8:31) against the text we find in Luke (Note, Codex Bezae reads τρεῖς ἡμέρας) and Matthew. This suggests the common prototype gospel read this way.

Further evidence is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Marcionite form, and other Luke passages (24:7, 24:46 both Catholic and Marcionite forms) mentioning the third day resurrection, that ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων was not present in the Marcionite text. This was simply not part of the formula

Note on πρεσβύτερος never appearing in the Marcionite text: I am convinced Harnack is incorrect, that the position of elders was not introduced in the church by Marcion (Marcionites) but rather a development of cleric order (see 1 Timothy 4:14 πρεσβυτερίου, i.e., a body/council/senate of elders) as the church formalized (larger size more division of labor). Seemingly also these elders served as a ready bulwark against gnostic and also women's orders (see 1 Timothy 5:16-17) that had sprung up in the church. We see there was great hostility to the order of elders from heretical sects in the church fathers and also in pastoral strata NT (Titus 1:5, Acts 14:23 about appointing elders; James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1-5 about the duties and also the submission of the youth --play on words of young-old, really signifying those not recognized by the ruling clerical class-- to the elders; Acts 15:1-6, 22-23, 16:4, 20:17, 21:18 emphasize the status of elders).

Thus, based on the evidence, IMO the text that stood was that reported by Epiphanius:
Δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ πaθεῖν, καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι, καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι
the son of man must suffer many things, and be killed, and after three days be raised

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Re: Marcion reconstruction is very dubious

Post by mlinssen »

Stuart wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:43 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:38 am The reconstruction appears to be very, very faithful // that is Tertullian's reconstruction -sgw
...
I meant the reconstruction on this site, the letters in blue.
Roth shouldn't have had any of this at all, given the fact that Epiphanius says that Marcion doesn't have it.

Scholion 52. Marcion falsified, “He took unto him the twelve and said, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written in the prophets concerning the Son of Man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered and killed, and the third day he shall rise again.” He falsified this in its entirety.
Elenchus 52. To make sure that he would not be upright in anything and, not being upright, would be convicted of tampering in every way. For he concealed the lines to deny what is said of the passion, if you please. But since he later admits that Christ has been crucified, his labor of tampering (with the text) will be labor in vain for him.


22 saying,The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and be killed [or: crucified], and the third day [Marcion: after three days] be raised up.

It is very, very puzzling
I'm going to disagree with the reconstruction by Tertillian. I think has he wrong or his text corrupted, as presbyteris (πρεσβυτέρων) would constitute a hapax legomenon within the entire Marcionite textual corpus.

My guess is Tertullian while having looked at the text, wrote the passage mindlessly adding a presbyteris et scribis et sacerdotibus "the elders, scribes and chief priests" from his ingrained memory of the text. Either that or a later scribal hand or editor of the version of Tertullian's collection we have inserted the words. I favor the former because it is a slight paraphrase from what we find in the Vulgate or rather independent translation. But of note, the Tertullian and Epiphanius agree on καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι "and after three days rise" (see Mark 8:31) against the text we find in Luke (Note, Codex Bezae reads τρεῖς ἡμέρας) and Matthew. This suggests the common prototype gospel read this way.

Further evidence is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Marcionite form, and other Luke passages (24:7, 24:46 both Catholic and Marcionite forms) mentioning the third day resurrection, that ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων was not present in the Marcionite text. This was simply not part of the formula

Note on πρεσβύτερος never appearing in the Marcionite text: I am convinced Harnack is incorrect, that the position of elders was not introduced in the church by Marcion (Marcionites) but rather a development of cleric order (see 1 Timothy 4:14 πρεσβυτερίου, i.e., a body/council/senate of elders) as the church formalized (larger size more division of labor). Seemingly also these elders served as a ready bulwark against gnostic and also women's orders (see 1 Timothy 5:16-17) that had sprung up in the church. We see there was great hostility to the order of elders from heretical sects in the church fathers and also in pastoral strata NT (Titus 1:5, Acts 14:23 about appointing elders; James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1-5 about the duties and also the submission of the youth --play on words of young-old, really signifying those not recognized by the ruling clerical class-- to the elders; Acts 15:1-6, 22-23, 16:4, 20:17, 21:18 emphasize the status of elders).

Thus, based on the evidence, IMO the text that stood was that reported by Epiphanius:
Δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ πaθεῖν, καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι, καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι
the son of man must suffer many things, and be killed, and after three days be raised

I'll agree that Tertullian has it wrong, but he will be wrong in everything regarding the passage if Marcion doesn't have any of it

Scholion 52. Marcion falsified, “He took unto him the twelve and said, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written in the prophets concerning the Son of Man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered and killed, and the third day he shall rise again.” He falsified this in its entirety.
Elenchus 52. To make sure that he would not be upright in anything and, not being upright, would be convicted of tampering in every way. For he concealed the lines to deny what is said of the passion, if you please. But since he later admits that Christ has been crucified, his labor of tampering (with the text) will be labor in vain for him.

Look at the bold please. And the italics
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Re: Marcion reconstruction is very dubious

Post by mlinssen »

Stuart wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:43 pm But of note, the Tertullian and Epiphanius agree on καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι "and after three days rise" (see Mark 8:31) against the text we find in Luke (Note, Codex Bezae reads τρεῖς ἡμέρας) and Matthew. This suggests the common prototype gospel read this way.

Further evidence is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Marcionite form, and other Luke passages (24:7, 24:46 both Catholic and Marcionite forms) mentioning the third day resurrection, (...)

Thus, based on the evidence, IMO the text that stood was that reported by Epiphanius:
Δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ πaθεῖν, καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι, καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι
the son of man must suffer many things, and be killed, and after three days be raised

Which is it now - three or third?

We must approach these texts with extreme prejudice.
We know, just from the content itself, that the so-called Church Fathers are themselves masters of falsification and lies, and that roughly half of what they claim is a lie.
These "against Marcion" books were not attacks, they were defending themselves against the continued allegations of having hijacked Marcion, which apparently lasted and persisted for more than 100 years

Yet look at what you have written just here, while trying to go after the by-product of "elders, scribes and chief priests" which you apparently retrieved from my post. You claim to have found Marcionite "forms" (whatever that may mean) and quote it as saying THIRD day, but as occupied with the presence or absence of "elders, scribes and chief priests" as you are you seem to not notice, and happily conclude that
Thus, based on the evidence, IMO the text that stood was that reported by Epiphanius:
Δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ πaθεῖν, καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι, καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἐγερθῆναι
the son of man must suffer many things, and be killed, and after three days be raised

Do you see how obscenely inaccurate and untrue that is?

Let me go through all of Tertullian for this one little passage, and I will cite the page numbers as they are used by the online Philip Schaff translation on ccel, e.g.: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03/Page_328.html

328: God’s entire work, therefore, is subverted. Christ’s death, wherein lies the whole weight and fruit of the Christian name, is denied although the apostle asserts 3214 it so expressly 3215 as undoubtedly real, making it the very foundation of the gospel, of our salvation and of his own preaching. 3216 “I have delivered unto you before all things,” says he, “how that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that He rose again the third day.”

I though that that was evidence enough that Marcion doesn't even have Jesus dying, but this appears to be a long rambling, related to the docetism of Marcion. In essence it wants to say "If Jesus were a mere spirit or phantom, he couldn't have died on the cross, and as such...

381: It was, however, a different reason which He assigned for the silence, even because “the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and scribes, and priests, and be slain, and be raised again the third day.” 4280 Now, inasmuch as these sufferings were actually foretold for the Creator’s Christ (as we shall fully show in the proper place 4281 ), so by this application of them to His own case 4282 does He prove that it is He Himself of whom they were predicted.

Again, Tertullian shows that there is reasonable doubt regarding the "foretelling"

422: For of this incident it is said by Hosea: “To seek my face they will watch till day-light, saying unto me, Come, and let us return to the Lord: for He hath taken away, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up; after two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up.” 5167 For who can refuse to believe that these words often revolved 5168 in the thought of those women between the sorrow of that desertion with which at present they seemed to themselves to have been smitten by the Lord, and the hope of the resurrection itself, by which they rightly supposed that all would be restored to them? But when “they found not the body (of the Lord Jesus),” 5169 “His sepulture was removed from the midst of them,” 5170 according to the prophecy of Isaiah. “Two angels however, appeared there.” 5171

(...)

For the same thing was said by the angels to the women: “Remember how He spake unto you when He was yet in Galilee, saying, The Son of man must be delivered up, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.” 5179 “Must be delivered up;” and why, except that it was so written by God the Creator? He therefore upbraided them, because they were offended solely at His passion, and because they doubted of the truth of the resurrection which had been reported to them by the women, whereby (they showed that) they had not believed Him to have been the very same as they had thought Him to be

It is just the continued repeating of these phrases that is the entire goal of all these ramblings.
I have read somewhere that Marcion reconstructed lead to not more than a page - well, that seems about correct, really. I have now read Harnack, BeDuhn and Roth and it is pathetic and revolting how most of biblical academic is nothing more than printing pages:
Second, that Marcion also read ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ is confirmed through the recognition that the Matthean reading (Matt 5:3) is the one toward which Tertullian naturally, and probably unconsciously, inclines. In fact, when Tertullian interpolates Isa 61:1–3 with Luke 6:20–22 in 4.14.13, he slips back into his regular pattern and writes beati mendici, quoniam illorum est regnum caelorum.
It is just an example - just an example of how infallible it all is. It is of very, very little use to keep reading the usual suspects.
Concluding all this, Stuart: Tertullian only has "third day" in his text, never "three days"

Epiphanius?

Third day

De Incarnatione I 2,8 (8) He was crucified and buried, descended to the underworld in Godhead and soul, led captivity captive, and rose again the third day with his sacred body itself, having united the body to his Godhead—a body no longer subject to dissolution, no longer suffering, no longer under death’s dominion

Basilides 6,3 (5) And Luke affirms that the Savior himself appeared on the road to Nathanael and Cleopas after his resurrection from the dead, and admonished them from the psalms and the prophets that “Thus it behooved Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day.” 34

Basilides 9,1 (3) And so he refutes these people by saying, “Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man shall be delivered up and put to death, and the third day he shall rise again.” 37 And to the sons of Zebedee he said, “Are ye able to drink the cup that I shall drink of’? 38

Archontics 8,1 (2) But something which was not a body but an apparition—as these people in their turn say 31 —could not have fallen into someone’s hands and been raised the third day, as he promised.

Marcion 52. Marcion falsifi ed, “He took unto him the twelve, and said, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written in the prophets concerning the Son of Man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered and killed, and the third day he shall rise again” 84 He falsified the whole of this.

Marcion 16(24). On resurrection of the dead: “Brethren, I make known unto you the gospel which I preached unto you.” 147 Also, “If Christ be not raised, it is in vain,” 148 and so on. “So we preach, and so ye believed . . . 149 that Christ died, and was buried, and rose again the third day . . . When this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” 150

Three days

Archontes 8,1 And again, to hint that there will be a resurrection of the dead, the Son of this God says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 30 But by “temple” he meant his own body, which would be “destroyed” by the hands of men—that is, killed.

Marcion 16. “Saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be slain, and be raised after three days.” 49

Scholion 16. “Saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be slain, and be raised after three days.” (a) Elenchus 16. If the only-begotten Son of God acknowledged that he was the Son of Man, and < would > suffer and be put to death, this is an axe pointed at you, Marcion, grubbing up your whole root—you scion of thorns, you waterless cloud, you barren tree with dead leaves! (b) For he says in turn, “and be raised again after three days.” But what was it that was raised, except the very thing that had suffered and been buried in the sepulchre? There could be no funeral and interment of a phantom, a wind, a spirit, or an illusion, and no resurrection of them.

Elenchus 74. If the removal, the wrapping, and the deposit in a rockhewn tomb do not convince you, Marcion, who is a bigger fool than you? What else that was plainer could scripture show when, to make the entire truth manifest, it exhibited the tomb, its location, what kind it was, the putting of the body there for three days, and the wrapper of the shroud?

(a) Elenchus 76. Not even these holy angels convince you, Marcion, though they confess that Christ has spent three days among the dead, and after that is alive, and dead no longer. (In his divine nature he is always alive, and was not put to death at all; but physically he had been put to death for the three days, and was alive again.) (b) For they tell the women, “He is risen; he is not here.” And what does “He is risen” mean but that he also fell asleep? For they make it clearer: “Remember that while he was yet with you he told you these things, that the Son of Man must suffer.”

Appeleans 6,4 (5) For unless the mortal (body) were to put on immortality and the corruptible (body) incorruption, the Immortal would not have come to die, so as to suffer, sleep the three days and rise in the mortal body, and thus take it up in himself, united with his Godhead and glory, allowing us, because of his good sojourn among us, truly to obtain all that we had hoped for—showing himself a pattern and a pledge for us, for the hope of the full realization of life.

Tatianists 3,9 < Or else you are attributing cruelty to the Lord >, if he was able to save Adam but showed no mercy. Why did Christ descend even to the underworld? Why did he take his three day sleep before he arose?

Why does anyone even bother? Isn't it blatantly obvious that all of this is feeble fantasy? So many details get changed so much back and forth again, it is evident that at the very best this was all a misty myth from the very beginning
Last edited by mlinssen on Sat May 29, 2021 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marcion and Thomas in all of Luke

Post by Stuart »

You have gone a bridge too far, much like Stephen Huller (Secret Alias) in creating a false dichotomy with reading Tertullian. It's not a case of always faithful or never faithful. Many things are at play, especially in a long work where a writer is trying to keep their train of thought over perhaps absolute accuracy.

In the main Tertullian reports faithfully text before him. But his readings should always be taken with a grain of salt and compared with all other witnesses. Word order is sometimes thought to be Western, but in many cases these are Latinisms, which for example transposes word order (shows he was fluent in Latin) which we see sometimes polluting Greek texts in diglots. Sometimes Tertullian reports a snippet from a verse but changes the tense or voice to match his sentence. But most important, sometimes Tertullian will quote the Marcionite text then retort with the Catholic text.

Then there are issues such as localisms. If you look at any two manuscripts, even of the same text type, you will come across textual variants in every so many verses. Our received text (USB) is not found in a single manuscript, but is reconstructed from all the manuscripts through textual analysis. There are many points of quibble still to this day. One of the salient features of the Marcionite text is that it was just as full of transmission errors as the Catholic text, and many of the same errors and scribal corrections (one of the reasons I agree with Clabeaux that the Marcionite text was in the same milieu as the Catholic text; and why I think it's a frozen stage of the text from when the sect broke with the rest of the church).

Thus the text before Tertullian is not necessarily the exact same as that before Epiphanius, nor that in the source of Adamantius. (Note in the case of Adamantius it's very clear to me it was built from other tracts, part 1 and part 2 are from two different sources, while part 3 which Harnack erroneously claimed was from the Marcionite is in fact from Methodius and so on. In the case of Epiphanius it appears to be a distillation of a prior work, but a pretty good one.)

In the case of verse 9:22 we have a complete passage by both Tertullian and Epiphanius. Tertullian is an independent translation from Greek to Latin, which can be seen in a few word choices (e.g., interfici instead of occidi, and presbyteris instead of senioribus we find in the Vulgate). He also says only Priests instead of Chief Priests (missing principibus) we find in all the Greek manuscripts of three synoptic gospels for this passage. That suggest to me some paraphrasing happened here.

As I stated it was the totality of evidence to come to my conclusion, not just the complete passage from Epiphanius, who never paraphrases, of the same verse without the "rejected by the elders, scribes and chief priests" element, but also the other three passages in Luke and 1 Corinthians (Marcionite form) which also do not include that element in the creed, and also the vocabulary found --or in this case not found-- in the rest of the Marcionite corpus.

This does not diminish Tertullian, merely point out the limitations of accepting any specific text. It is very possible the text Tertullian saw had this element added by a scribe familiar with the other accounts. Very certainly an early version of Matthew was known to the Marcionites, which is clear from the pointed response to Catholic texts found in DA from Marcionite Champions. And there was no doubt at least a brief period when pollution of one text to the other was possible from scribal copyists before the sect separated physically from the main church. That could explain the text. It is also possible that Tertullian blundered ahead and recalling from memory added the elements the same was a copyist might (as I think happened here). But just as we do not throw out evidence for the received text due to errors in great manuscripts such as B ℵ p75 D, so too we should not dispose of Tertullian or Adamantius or other witnesses. Rather we should weigh their testimony. In this way we can determine if they are reporting an accurate original text, or a local textual variant, or pollution from the Catholic text, or an early form of the Catholic text independent of the Marcionite (as is the case IMO of a couple passages in DA 5), or slightly garbled text from translation to Latin or paraphrase.

Do not throw the baby out with the bath water, and do not create a false dichotomy of all accurate or just wild inaccurate reporting.
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Tertullian and Epiphanius unlikely to be reliable

Post by mlinssen »

I'll agree with the bridge too far, I am used to my Thomas where the issue only is in very garbled translations of one and the same literal text.
This - this is something quite different. Not just one text, but a few of them, with hundreds and thousands of variants over decades and centuries

And somehow, people are able to tell whether something is a scribal error or something original! Simply amazing
Then there are issues such as localisms. If you look at any two manuscripts, even of the same text type, you will come across textual variants in every so many verses. Our received text (USB) is not found in a single manuscript, but is reconstructed from all the manuscripts through textual analysis
I don't give a damn about the Catholic text really, I have simply gone by Tertullian and Epiphanius and looked at their three days vs third day.
It is evident that Tertullian is very consistent here while Epiphanius says both. And if they can't even quote their own text, we shouldn't put a lot of trust in what they're saying about that of Marcion

I appreciate your feel for subtle linguistic details Stuart, but I wonder if that's not wasted on Tertullian or Epiphanius, or any other apologist for that matter.
I like to solve matters like these by simple reasoning, rather than spending weeks or months on dissecting letters and words that were written 1 or 2 centuries after the event

Ask yourself why Tertullian and Epiphanius went through the trouble of writing booklets like these: what is the point to it, what direction do they take their writings in? It is not much more than a scolding that they are giving, it all is rather cheap.
Is there anything sophisticated in either Tertullian or Epiphanius, or is nothing more than having a few cheap shots at people who can't defend themselves?
Is it a weighted or balanced criticism, is it a writing that would be advantageous to both parties?

You'll likely say that I'm missing the nuance, and I likely am, but then my question is: what exactly is the intended audience?

The one and only question is, and I'm afraid that Peter answered that one long ago, and that such is the exact reason why he started his thread with the poll in it, and I'm just an ignorant fool for jumping right at it in my usual manner: is there any reason why we should expect anything of what they say to be reliable?
Look at Justin and his dozens of lies, his accusing the Judaics that they got their Tanakh wrong

I wasted 3 days on this but I did get a couple of nuggets out of it. I'll focus on those and leave the rest for the rest. I'm certainly not well made for this particular job or this kind of texts, and I find them to be nauseating at that.
Fortunately, I have more than enough to do!
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Tertullian reads Thomas logion 64

Post by mlinssen »

Adversus Marcionem

Latin

https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/tertull ... nem4.shtml

English

https://ccel.org/ccel/tertullian/agains ... .xxxi.html

31. [1] Ad prandium vel ad coenam quales vocari iubet? Quales ostenderat per Esaiam: Confringe panem tuum esurienti, et mendicos, et qui sine tecto sunt, induc in domum tuam, qui scilicet humanitatis istius vicem retribuere non possint. Hanc si Christus captari vetat, in resurrectione eam repromittens, creatoris est forma, cui non placent amantes munera, sectantes retributionem. Etiam invitatoris parabola cui magis parti occurrat expende. Homo quidam fecit coenam et vocavit multos. [2] Utique coenae paratura vitae aeternae saturitatem figurat. Dico primo extraneos et nullius iuris adfines invitari ad coenam non solere, certe facilius solere domesticos et familiares. Ergo creatoris est invitasse, ad quem pertinebant qui invitabantur, et per Adam qua homines, et per patres qua Iudaici, non eius ad quem neque natura pertinebant neque praerogativa.

What kind of persons does He bid should be invited to a dinner or a supper?4726 Precisely such as he had pointed out by Isaiah: “Deal thy bread to the hungry man; and the beggars—even such as have no home—bring in to thine house,”4727 because, no doubt, they are “unable to recompense” your act of humanity. Now, since Christ forbids the recompense to be expected now, but promises it “at the resurrection,” this is the very plan4728 of the Creator, who dislikes those who love gifts and follow after reward. Consider also to which deity4729 is better suited the parable of him who issued invitations: “A certain man made a great supper, and bade many.”4730 The preparation for the supper is no doubt a figure of the abundant provision4731 of eternal life. I first remark, that strangers, and persons unconnected by ties of relationship, are not usually invited to a supper; but that members of the household and family are more frequently the favoured guests. To the Creator, then, it belonged to give the invitation, to whom also appertained those who were to be invited—whether considered as men, through their descent from Adam, or as Jews, by reason of their fathers; not to him who possessed no claim to them either by nature or prerogative.

For reasons untold, the Lambdins and Laytons of this world - and everybody else - translate the "strangers" of logion 64 with guests, visitors, and what not.
We know that those biased interpreters wanted to harmonise Thomas with the canonicals, e.g. given their choice for "kingdom of heaven" where Thomas has "kingdom of the heavens", for instance - whereas they're perfectly capable of translating the "heavens" of logion 111.
I'll leave the parable of the colostrum (not leaven, no) out of it, likewise logion 74 and many others. It is evident that they were either incompetent or trying to obfuscate something

In that light it is remarkable that Tertullian slips and, seemingly out of nowhere, starts talking of strangers while discussing the parable of the banquet

Below the first lines of the transcription of logion 64 and the link to the papyrus

ⲡⲉϫⲉ ⲓ̄ⲥ ̄ ϫⲉ ⲟⲩ ⲣⲱ
ⲙⲉ ⲛ ⲉⲩⲛ ̄ⲧⲁ ϥ ϩⲛ ̄ ϣⲙ ̄ⲙⲟ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲛ̄ ⲧⲁⲣⲉ ϥ ⲥⲟⲃ

https://www.freelyreceive.net/metalogos ... can/13.jpg

And the word is ϣⲙⲙⲟ - https://coptic-dictionary.org/entry.cgi?tla=C5893

And my translation, with every single word hyperlinked to online dictionaries, can be found at https://www.academia.edu/42110001

64 said IS : a human was having him some strangers and after-that he ...

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