Photius' description Stephen Gobar's book

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DCHindley
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Photius' description Stephen Gobar's book

Post by DCHindley »

With regard to Photius, Bibliotheca, 232, I noticed a few years ago that the J. H. Freese translation of René Henry's French translation in Les Belles Lettres, as commissioned by Roger Pearse, http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photi ... otheca.htm , has a missing section:
.... The subjects on which this double and contradictory demonstration is made are the following.

[the missing text]

[That] First of all the just will be resurrected

and with them all those alive

and they will live a good life for a thousand years,

eating and drinking,

procreating,

and that it is after this time that there will be the universal resurrection.

...
I am able to match all of the rest of the English translation of the French translation to the Greek of Photius, except for this snippet.
Ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ καὶ ἡ μορφὴ ὑπό στασίς ἐστιν,

ἀλλ' οὐχὶ συμπλοκὴ τῆς οὐσίας καὶ τοῦ ἰδιώματος,

οὐδὲ τὸ αὐθυπόστατον.

Τοῦτο μὲν αἱ χρήσεις κατασκευάζουσι πρότερον,

εἶτα πάλιν ὕστερον τὸ ἐναντίον ἕτεραι,

τουτέστι ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ἡ μορφὴ καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπόστασις ἀλλὰ τῆς ὑποστάσεως χαρακτήρ.

Καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν ἄλλων κεφαλαίων,

ἵνα μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ καθ' ἕκαστον λέγειν συναναγκασθείημεν,

τὴν ἀντίθεσιν αἱ διάφοροι χρήσεις ἀπολαμβάνουσαι δοκοῦσιν ἑκατέρωθεν συνιστᾶν τὸ προτεινόμενον.
Would one of our more educated forum members be willing to translate this Greek directly into English?

I have broken down the Greek into what I think are sense units. Maybe it was excluded as some sort of comment by Photius, although I would expect something in Roger's commissioned translation to indicate an interruption, but nothing is to be seen.

Thanks! DCH :scratch:
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mlinssen
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Re: Photius' description Stephen Gobar's book

Post by mlinssen »

DCHindley wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:47 pm With regard to Photius, Bibliotheca, 232, I noticed a few years ago that the J. H. Freese translation of René Henry's French translation in Les Belles Lettres, as commissioned by Roger Pearse, http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/photi ... otheca.htm , has a missing section:
.... The subjects on which this double and contradictory demonstration is made are the following.

[the missing text]

[That] First of all the just will be resurrected

and with them all those alive

and they will live a good life for a thousand years,

eating and drinking,

procreating,

and that it is after this time that there will be the universal resurrection.

...
I am able to match all of the rest of the English translation of the French translation to the Greek of Photius, except for this snippet.
Ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ καὶ ἡ μορφὴ ὑπό στασίς ἐστιν,

ἀλλ' οὐχὶ συμπλοκὴ τῆς οὐσίας καὶ τοῦ ἰδιώματος,

οὐδὲ τὸ αὐθυπόστατον.

Τοῦτο μὲν αἱ χρήσεις κατασκευάζουσι πρότερον,

εἶτα πάλιν ὕστερον τὸ ἐναντίον ἕτεραι,

τουτέστι ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ἡ μορφὴ καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπόστασις ἀλλὰ τῆς ὑποστάσεως χαρακτήρ.

Καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν ἄλλων κεφαλαίων,

ἵνα μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ καθ' ἕκαστον λέγειν συναναγκασθείημεν,

τὴν ἀντίθεσιν αἱ διάφοροι χρήσεις ἀπολαμβάνουσαι δοκοῦσιν ἑκατέρωθεν συνιστᾶν τὸ προτεινόμενον.
Would one of our more educated forum members be willing to translate this Greek directly into English?

I have broken down the Greek into what I think are sense units. Maybe it was excluded as some sort of comment by Photius, although I would expect something in Roger's commissioned translation to indicate an interruption, but nothing is to be seen.

Thanks! DCH :scratch:
You have broken down some words that I have reconnected again via a dash: a word-for-word literal translation this is

Ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ καὶ ἡ μορφὴ ὑπό-στασίς ἐστιν,
That the peculiarity and the mark-engraved and the form foundation is,

ἀλλ' οὐχὶ συμπλοκὴ τῆς οὐσίας καὶ τοῦ ἰδιώματος,
but not intertwining of-the property and of-the peculiarity,

οὐδὲ τὸ αὐθυπόστατον (αὖθι ὑποστατός).
nor the there to-be-endured(?).

Τοῦτο μὲν αἱ χρήσεις κατασκευάζουσι πρότερον,
This however the(pl) employments built earlier,

εἶτα πάλιν ὕστερον τὸ ἐναντίον ἕτεραι,
then again afterward the before others,

τουτέστι ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ἡ μορφὴ καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπόστασις ἀλλὰ τῆς ὑποστάσεως χαρακτήρ.
Thence (this-is) that the peculiarity and the form and the mark-engraved not is foundation but of-the foundation mark-engraved.

Καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν ἄλλων κεφαλαίων,
And upon of-the others of-the-heads

ἵνα μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ καθ' ἕκαστον λέγειν συναναγκασθείημεν,
so-that not the(pl) same(-things) according-to every saying we-compress(?)

τὴν ἀντίθεσιν αἱ διάφοροι χρήσεις ἀπολαμβάνουσαι δοκοῦσιν ἑκατέρωθεν συνιστᾶν τὸ προτεινόμενον.
the opposition the(pl) different employments received they-esteem on-each-side commend the put-before

With a bit of guesswork, and Berean Interlinear, you can come all the way really. I have had 4 years of Greek but I doubt that I have used much of that pool of knowledge this time. If the Interlinear fails you, even when you try a shorter word or remove the accents, then try Perseus TUFTS:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0057 (LSJ)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0058 (Middle Liddell)

The LSJ is more NT-oriented, whereas Middle Liddell contains the more pure translations

Abusing the Berean Interlinear also leads one to see that Hebrews 1:3 is very interesting in this regard...

Now, putting it all together:

That the peculiarity and the mark-engraved (image) and the form foundation is,
but not intertwining of-the property and of-the peculiarity,
nor the there to-be-endured(?).

FINISH LATER DORRY
This however the(pl) employments built earlier,

εἶτα πάλιν ὕστερον τὸ ἐναντίον ἕτεραι,
then again afterward the before others,

τουτέστι ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ἡ μορφὴ καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπόστασις ἀλλὰ τῆς ὑποστάσεως χαρακτήρ.
Thence (this-is) that the peculiarity and the form and the mark-engraved not is foundation but of-the foundation mark-engraved.

Καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν ἄλλων κεφαλαίων,
And upon of-the others of-the-heads

ἵνα μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ καθ' ἕκαστον λέγειν συναναγκασθείημεν,
so-that not the(pl) same(-things) according-to every saying we-compress(?)

τὴν ἀντίθεσιν αἱ διάφοροι χρήσεις ἀπολαμβάνουσαι δοκοῦσιν ἑκατέρωθεν συνιστᾶν τὸ προτεινόμενον.
the opposition the(pl) different employments received they-esteem on-each-side commend the put-before
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DCHindley
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Re: Photius' description Stephen Gobar's book

Post by DCHindley »

Photius sure did like to point out what he considers contradictions in Gobar's thinking.

I had initially intended to do as you did, go word for word (I used the Perseus.org morphology tool) to create a crib sheet, but my feeble attention was diverted by work or health (my eyes were very weak starting about then, only recently fixed by cataract surgery).

A lot of the odd vocabulary might be Photius' there, as he wrote in 9th century CE in Constantinople, and Gobar in the late 6th century CE. This is long after NT times, the vocabulary and grammar of which I am much more familiar with, and that is not saying much.

Edit: I played with your "crib" translation (I like to do that sort of thing myself) and my guess is that this section was a comment by Photius on Gobar's tendency to give both sides of subjects under discussion, not equally well presented.

But isn't that already in the translation somewhere? Maybe I'm thinking of a modern commentary's paraphrase.

Here is a copy of a PDF summarizing things, I think content was from 2017 although this PDF was saved in 2020:
DCH
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mlinssen
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Re: Photius' description Stephen Gobar's book

Post by mlinssen »

I got challenged by the weather gawds who decided it was time for more rain, after less than a week of sun that followed on 6-8 consecutive weeks of rain - every single day

I'll give you the gist now

"The unique feature is the foundation of the image/ character and the form,
Ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ καὶ ἡ μορφὴ ὑπό-στασίς ἐστιν,
That the peculiarity and the mark-engraved and the form foundation is,
yet without a clash between the essence and the unique feature
ἀλλ' οὐχὶ συμπλοκὴ τῆς οὐσίας καὶ τοῦ ἰδιώματος,
but not intertwining of-the property and of-the peculiarity,
Nor (did) this "thence-foundated" however (get) built earlier (by) (its) uses
οὐδὲ τὸ αὐθυπόστατον (αὖθι ὑποστατός).
nor the there to-be-endured(?).
Τοῦτο μὲν αἱ χρήσεις κατασκευάζουσι πρότερον,
This however the(pl) employments built earlier,
Then again other (uses) (built) the opposite afterwards
εἶτα πάλιν ὕστερον τὸ ἐναντίον ἕτεραι,
then again afterward the before others,
Thence the unique feature is not the foundation of the form and the image/ character, but the image of the foundation
τουτέστι ὅτι τὸ ἰδίωμα καὶ ἡ μορφὴ καὶ ὁ χαρακτὴρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπόστασις ἀλλὰ τῆς ὑποστάσεως χαρακτήρ.
Thence (this-is) that the peculiarity and the form and the mark-engraved not is foundation but of-the foundation mark-engraved.
And regarding the other principals
Καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν ἄλλων κεφαλαίων,
And upon of-the others of-the-heads
So that we don't say the same things merely more concisely
ἵνα μὴ τὰ αὐτὰ καθ' ἕκαστον λέγειν συναναγκασθείημεν,
so-that not the(pl) same(-things) according-to every saying we-compress(?)
The opposite-tion (is achieved) by the different uses received, they think, reciprocally they combine the put forth
τὴν ἀντίθεσιν αἱ διάφοροι χρήσεις ἀπολαμβάνουσαι δοκοῦσιν ἑκατέρωθεν συνιστᾶν τὸ προτεινόμενον.
the opposition the(pl) different employments received they-esteem on-each-side commend the put-before

Well, that's been about 4 decades!
This is the way I learned to translate, in Grammar school. Make a literal translation, and then make an interpretation

But it would help if I got my conjugations and declinations right LOL, and know what it is all about

Anyway, I'm back up in the roof. Later
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