Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

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Giuseppe
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Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by Giuseppe »

So Odes 42:

I stretched out my hands and approached my Lord:
For the stretching of my hands is His sign:
My expansion is the outspread tree which was set up on the way of the Righteous One.

An alternative translation, given by Arthur Drews in a French translation of his magnus opus Christ Myth, gives the same passage as:

I stretched out my hands and approached my Lord:
For the stretching of my hands is His sign:
My expansion is the outspread tree
to which was raised the man hanged on the margin of the way.

The verse assumes the existence of a "way" along the place where there was the crucifixion.

The same "way" is assumed to be found implicitly in Mark 15;29:

Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days

It is evident that the original author of Odes 42 didn't mean the same "way" where the enemies of Jesus "passed by".

Therefore, a different "way" is meant.

The "way" was probably a celestial passage from lower heavens to upper heavens.

Why "probably"?

because from texts as Ascension of Isaiah, we know that during the ascent to upper heaven, the Son was EXALTED by all the angels, both evil and good angels.

The irony of Mark 15:29 is that the role of the angels, who in the original myth exalted Jesus, is given to people who insulted Jesus.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by Giuseppe »

Corollary: the cross was raised in the original myth along the "way" from lower heavens to upper heavens.

In OUTER SPACE.
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by mlinssen »

The word is not tree, but wood

I recommend you read pages 403-407 of https://archive.org/details/odesandpsal ... 5/mode/2up

Syriac, alas. Not my cup of tea
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by neilgodfrey »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:25 pm The word is not tree, but wood

I recommend you read pages 403-407 of https://archive.org/details/odesandpsal ... 5/mode/2up

Syriac, alas. Not my cup of tea
On the word "wood", from https://archive.org/details/odespsalmso ... 6/mode/2up
(a) ... the word ... ‘wood’ refers frequently in Syriac literature to the Cross, and

(b) that this wood-cross is commonly compared with the wood-tree of Paradise, the one as being the source of death, and the other of life . . .
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by mlinssen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:37 pm
mlinssen wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:25 pm The word is not tree, but wood

I recommend you read pages 403-407 of https://archive.org/details/odesandpsal ... 5/mode/2up

Syriac, alas. Not my cup of tea
On the word "wood", from https://archive.org/details/odespsalmso ... 6/mode/2up
(a) ... the word ... ‘wood’ refers frequently in Syriac literature to the Cross, and

(b) that this wood-cross is commonly compared with the wood-tree of Paradise, the one as being the source of death, and the other of life . . .
Even rather more frequently, wood refers to... wood

I read all the mumbo jumbo of course, the writer is a zealous religiot just like almost all other writers of early "xtian" papers / books.
"We do not see any obvious reason to depart from the manuscripts" (page 406). Ah, no, of course not

His "wood" is a perfect translation though, and it shouldn't be translated any other way.
Interpreted? Well, anything goes there really

People should be careful not to create an assumption and to then use that to build or base another assumption on, exactly as you're doing here: the wood turns into a cross, the cross then turns into a tree-cross, and that then gets compared to the Paradise Trees.
That's a Babylonian Tower of Assumptions that comes down by merely glancing at it

"In Syriac literature" is a treacherous label of course, and reminds me of "historical records" used by apologists when they speak of texts that support their cause
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:37 pm
mlinssen wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:25 pm The word is not tree, but wood

I recommend you read pages 403-407 of https://archive.org/details/odesandpsal ... 5/mode/2up

Syriac, alas. Not my cup of tea
On the word "wood", from https://archive.org/details/odespsalmso ... 6/mode/2up
(a) ... the word ... ‘wood’ refers frequently in Syriac literature to the Cross, and

(b) that this wood-cross is commonly compared with the wood-tree of Paradise, the one as being the source of death, and the other of life . . .
Regarding, " the word...‘wood’ refers frequently in Syriac literature to the Cross", one would need to know what Syriac literature, when it might have been written, and what [texts] it was or might have been referring to, to properly contextualise that statement.

Not the subsequent 'Expository Notes' -

.
Expository Notes

There can be no doubt that this Psalm is based upon the early Christian attitude in prayer, which was cruciform, and upon the habit of the early Christians of finding the Cross everywhere in the outward world; eg. in the handle of the labourer’s plough and in the mast and yards of the seaman’s ship. The figurative language employed is characteristic of the second century and not unknown in the first. Justin Martyr, for instance, and Barnabas, see the Cross in the outspread arms of Moses in the battle against Amalek; and it is possible that our Nitrian MS. had this in mind in reading
‘the extension of my hands is weary'


eta: Homer used the word stauros for an ordinary pole or stake, or a simple piece of timber.[ Iliad xxiv.453. Odyssey xiv.11] This was the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics.[ eg. Thucydides iv.90.; Xenophon, Anabasis v.2.21]

Speculations about the Stauros are older than Christianity, as an entity to rival Horos, and a Platonic conception may have been at work here. In Valentinianism, the cross could stand for the wondrous Aeon on whom depends the ordering and life of the world ...

See this thread viewtopic.php?p=117402#p117402

From 'The Crucifixion of the Paschal Lamb' by Joseph Tabory, in The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Series, Vol. 86, No. 3/4 (Jan–Apr, 1996), pp. 395-406; via JSTOR: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1454912

Justin's description [in Dial. 40] of the crucifixion of the paschal lamb by the Jews is intended to prove that the offering of the lamb was a perfect prefiguration of the crucifixion of Jesus.

And also note

(b) that this wood-cross is commonly compared with the wood-tree of Paradise ...

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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by neilgodfrey »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:28 am Even rather more frequently, wood refers to... wood
I knew you were enthusiastic but I did assume you were also sincerely interested in scholarly works. You're obviously too smart to waste your time with serious scholarship.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:48 am Regarding, " the word...‘wood’ refers frequently in Syriac literature to the Cross", one would need to know what Syriac literature, when it might have been written, and what [texts] it was or might have been referring to, to properly contextualise that statement.
An explanation of the way "wood" became a term for the cross in the case of Paul's letter to the Galatians:

https://vridar.org/2020/06/12/how-paul- ... criptures/
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by mlinssen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:15 am
mlinssen wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:28 am Even rather more frequently, wood refers to... wood
I knew you were enthusiastic but I did assume you were also sincerely interested in scholarly works. You're obviously too smart to waste your time with serious scholarship.
Temperatures are hot these days, aren't they? You're obviously too hot-tempered to spend time on a less condescending response

How would you define "serious scholarship"?
Is that defined by context, for example someone with a few degrees from Harvard, a Divinity school, or perhaps the level of Professor, preferably emeritus as well?
Or is that defined by content, where statements are backed by easily verifiable arguments that make sense, and where claims are also considered from the other side, by playing the Devil's advocate before others have to do so?

I consider the latter to have priority over the former, and my Commentary is an exemplary demonstration of that, where I even solve a few Thomasine riddles by taking the reader along the path of Coptic intricacies, in a rather accessible way I like to think

How would you define a "scholarly work"?

Arthur Droge would be a perfect example of someone producing such, and Russell Gmirkin. Goodacre is alright, Kloppenborg - he's good on the SP. DeConick? Rubbish on Thomas, I don't know about her other works
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MrMacSon
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Re: Odes of Solomon 42 precedes Mark 15:29: the original "way" of the cross

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:32 am
MrMacSon wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:48 am Regarding, " the word...‘wood’ refers frequently in Syriac literature to the Cross", one would need to know what Syriac literature, when it might have been written, and what [texts] it was or might have been referring to, to properly contextualise that statement.
An explanation of the way "wood" became a term for the cross in the case of Paul's letter to the Galatians:

https://vridar.org/2020/06/12/how-paul- ... criptures/
Sure, but the-shape-of-the-cross was likely a later development, and widespread use of and reverence for the term 'cross' was likely to have been, too. The root Greek word for 'cross' in the Pauline epistles is stauros, and the Greek words for crucified in the Pauline epistles and the canonical Gospels are essentially versions of 'staurified' ie. staked.

So, one might argue that, rather than " 'wood' became a term for the cross", cross became a term for wood (or tree), and cross was at some later (but not too much later) period retroverted onto wood or tree and the notion of crucifixion ...
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