Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Steven Avery
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Bill Brown
"Which is not the Comma Johanneum (your so-called "heavenly witnesses") but let's not let that fact get in the way."

When the context is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, and the "these three are one", it is clearly a reference to the heavenly witnesses, not an invisible allegory to the earthly.

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Steven Avery
"Jerome described this dynamic of scribes preferring to drop the text in his Prologue to the Canonical Epistles.

Bill Brown
You know full well nobody accepts Jerome authorship of this as well as the fact it's clearly an after-the-fact justification.

Nonsense.
If you want to give the supposed arguments against authenticity, go right ahead. We can have the discussion here.

At least here you avoid potty-mouth vulgarity.

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Bill Brown
. Even if we say, "He was first," all that means it the Latin corruption is proven to be a century older than it is currently known to be.

And all the false textcrit theories of an Orthodox interpolation go down the tubes.

And you get that much closer to the original Greek and very early Latin.
The cumulative evidences are probative to authenticity.

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There are two distinct types of ad hominems, and they are very different.

You do not know the classical meaning.
And you tend to use the second, new one falsely.

This is actually an interesting issue, for those who understand.

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Bill Brown
"invisible allegory" since I seriously doubt anyone with a brain can see invisible things.

Precisely the point.
Writers like Cyprian and Potamius did not write by invisible allegories because they would not be seen and would only confuse the readers.
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Three things.

1. The Latin phrase: “et tres unum sunt” IS in both verses (verse 8 and verse 7) in the Latin versions:

Verse 7 (KJV-numbering): “Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in cælo : Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus : et hi tres unum sunt.”
Verse 8 (KJV-numbering): “Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra : spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis : et hi tres unum sunt.”

So the phrase "et hi tres unum sunt" is in both verses!

Verse 7 (KJV-numbering): “et hi tres unum sunt.”
Verse 8 (KJV-numbering): “et hi tres unum sunt.”

Therefore, it is entirely probable that Potamius could be referring to verse 8's "et hi tres unum sunt."

2. The context, for example, seen below in one of the texts quoted from Potamius, shows some kind of symbolism being read into various texts.

Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. [Chapter] 10.
"And now, if you agree, since we have burst out from the spring of the Trinity, let us examine again, like keen investigators, the innermost nature of the 'substance', from which the spring gushes and flows out. Thus the Savior proclaimed: 'The Father and I are one' (John 14:9). Likewise John says: "And the three of them are one' (1 John 5:8). And David also: "For this purpose God has anointed you, your God' (Ps. 44:8) he says - that is, the God to whom David's words, the half of your part of which he is the whole. 'Yours' - he says - that is devoted to you, to whom your yourself should be made over. He is 'yours' to whom the words are spoken, or 'his' who comes, or 'of him' whom he frequently meets. 'Your God', he says, to whom you certainly belong, with whom you are associated thanks to unity, or who, from his 'substance', is associated with you. But since the power of the Father is the Son, the power itself pertains to its 'substance', because 'substance' cannot exist without power. With good reason the 'substance' of the Father and the Son is one." - (Potamius of Lisbon. "Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" in the life and works of Potamius of Lisbon edited and translated by Marco Conti, 1998, p. 156)

But when we compare Chapter 10 with the wider context of Chapter 1 (something not talked about by Steven Avery) which can be seen below from a different translation, it shows that Potamius used an almost identical phrase "looking for the [i.e."hidden" or "secret"] meaning of 'substance' clarifying it's nature" in the clear context of having just said he was looking for the "hidden meanings" and "secrets" in the Law, Parables, Dogma, Prophecy, Oracles, etc.

Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. [Chapter] 1.
I have the habit, brothers, as you say and I do not ignore it, yes, I have the habit of penetrating the secrets of the Law, searching the bowels of the dogma, going into the veins of the viscera and probing the most hidden meanings of the parables. But in the midst of these things, lost the agility of movements, with which I moved quickly with oscillating speed and the flicker of the mind through the lands of prophecy and oracles that divine thoughts, looking for the meaning of "substance" and clarifying its nature , I bumped into the limitations of language and the goal of my rambling, around which I was walking.” - (Chapter 1:1-13, “Epistula de Substantia Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.” Tranlsated into English from “Potamio De Lisboa,” in Philokalia, Volume 15, by José António Gonçalves e Isidro P. Lamelas, 2011.)

Therefore, this wider context from Chapter 1 of the same work, helps us to understand more accurately the habitual meaning of Potamius (note Potamius, his own habitual kind of meaning, not Avery's artificial or imposed one) in the words found in Avery's quoted text from Chapter 10.

It's not enough to read isolated portions of text from Potamius, divorced from there context (i.e. the wider context of the entire work), as if it meant "so and so", when the wider context shows the writer habitually interprets "hidden meanings" and "secret" interpretations into and over texts to suit his own ends.

3. When these two points above are taken together, it show's that it is far more probable that Potamius read a "hidden" or "secret" meaning into "et hi tres unum sunt" verse 8 (note 8, according to the KJV1611 verse numbering system).
Last edited by Investigator on Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:13 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery also does not present a single word or comment from the translator's (i.e. Professor Marco Conti, American University of Rome) commentary on these passages which he frames as being a reference to 1 John 5:7 (note verse 7).

"The Life and Works of Potamius of Lisbon - A Biographical and Literary Study with English Translation and a Complete Commentary on the Extant Works of Potamius Epistula Ad Athanasium, De Lazaro, De Martyrio Isaiae Prophetae, Epistula de Substantia, Epistula Potami." By Marco Conti, 1998.

Part three of professor Conti's book is composed by five complete commentaries on each work of Potamius:
  • Epistula ad Athanasium,
    De Lazaro,
    De martyrio Isaiae prophetae,
    Epistula de substantia Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti,
    Epistula Potamii (fragment quoted in Phoebadius' Contra Arianos).

Part four is an appendix constituted by the Latin text of each work with English translation.

These are the references Steven provides below, but he provides none of Conti's (the translator's) own commentary with any of them! Which would be invaluable to a proper and accurate assessment of Potamius' work and references to the controversial verses in 1 John 5:7-8.
  • Potamius of Lisbon. [Chapter ?, of] "Letter to Athanasius the Bishop of Alexandria on the consubstantiality of the Son of God" in the life and works of Potamius of Lisbon edited and translated by Marco Conti, 1998, p. 136

    Potamius of Lisbon. [Chapter 3, of] "Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" in the life and works of Potamius of Lisbon edited and translated by Marco Conti, 1998, p. 150

    Potamius of Lisbon. [Chapter 10, of] "Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" in the life and works of Potamius of Lisbon edited and translated by Marco Conti, 1998, p. 156

    Potamius of Lisbon. [Chapter 19, of] "Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" in the life and works of Potamius of Lisbon edited and translated by Marco Conti, 1998, p. 162
Anyone who has access to Conti's commentary on these specific chapters above, would be most welcome to post them here.
Steven Avery
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Investigator wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:14 am Anyone who has access to Conti's commentary on these specific chapters above, would be most welcome to post them here.
Sounds good.
Although I doubt that he goes much into the four quotes.
Most possible is a reference to the background of his writing to Athanasius.

And I will plan on asking my source.

Also, commentators today often accept textcrit errors about verses, as believers in the NT corrupt critical texts.
Steven Avery
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Investigator wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:44 am
3. When these two points above are taken together, it show's that it is far more probable that Potamius read a "hidden" or "secret" meaning into "et hi tres unum sunt" verse 8 (note 8, according to the KJV1611 verse numbering system).
This is just silly season.

Here is one of the four.

====================

● Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3. With good reason John asserts: 'and the three of them are one' 'Substance ' is the expression of a single entity. In fact the substance of a thing is the totality of that through which a thing exists. Thus 'substance' will set a certain condition under a certain authority, or shows that a certain condition is subjected to it. As a consequence 'substance' is that through which the perplexity of faith is resigned and the unity of the Trinity is bound together.

(Potamius of Lisbon. "Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" in the life and works of Potamius of Lisbon edited and translated by Marco Conti, 1998, p. 150)

====================

The three are one is directly in the context of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing about water, spirit or blood.

We can get a nice chuckle out of the invisible allegory claims.

====================

Nenry Thomas Armstrong wrote about similar claims on Cyprian>
"a certain mystical interpretation which he (Cyprian) has not given or alluded to, of a verse which he has not quoted!"
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

The immediate or surrounding context definitely does not say "there are three in heaven that give witness" either.

Your mere opinion does not prove whether Potamius was quoting verse 8 or verse 7.

The context of the text itself (Potamius opinion) of Potamius' "hidden meanings" in Bible texts stated in Chapter 1 of the text, immediately puts a "hidden meaning" of the literal text of verse 8 in favour!

The context of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is also indeterminate, because they would still be mentioned in an "allegorical" interpretation, because that's the "hidden meaning" Potamius see's in the verse.

Stating your opinion doesn't change anything, nor has it proved a single point for or against the Comma.
Last edited by Investigator on Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steven Avery
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Investigator wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:43 pm The immediate or surrounding context definitely does not say "there are three in heaven that give witness" either.
The immediate context connects the three are one with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And this connection is done in all the quotes.

This clearly makes the connection with verse 7 the heavenly witnesses far, far stronger than any connection with the earthly witnesses, which are never mentioned by Potamius.

It is sort of a joke that you would claim that some hidden meaning, with no actual support, is more probable. It is very hard for those who are contra heavenly witnesses authenticity to acknowledge the sensible, logical and obvious.

Now Cyprian and Potamius could be acknowledged as referencing the heavenly witnesses, and the authenticity of the verse as original Johannine scripture still denied. That would be an argument attempt of more substance.
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:47 am
The immediate context connects the three are one with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And this connection is done in all the quotes.

This clearly makes the connection with verse 7 the heavenly witnesses far, far stronger than any connection with the earthly witnesses, which are never mentioned by Potamius
.[/quote]

The context definitely does not quote (note quote) indisputably any part of verse seven other than "et hi tres unum sunt" (which is the same Latin in verse 8), therefore there is no definite indisputable connection with: "there are three in heaven who give witness" making the references you point to by default indeterminate between verse 8 or verse 7 (as mentioned about the Latin "et tres hi unum sunt" in previous posts). Potamius never calls the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit "the heavenly witnesses" in any of these texts either.

Your mere opinion that the mere mention of the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit in the context of a letter written about the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit being of the same substance is very very weak (to say the least)! Mention of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is going to be mentioned in the surrounding context (immediate and wider) with EVERY PROOF text that Potamius reads his "secret" and "the most hidden meanings" into (note not just hidden meanings but "THE MOST hidden meanings") throughout the entire letter.

Even the title of letter for example: ""Letter on the Substance of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (note, not a "Letter on the Substance of [the three heavenly witnesses], the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit") this title itself makes mention of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as context, but notice, it makes mention of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit without any reference to 1 John 5:7, or 1 John 5:8, or any other proof text within the title heading at all.

The context of Potamius' habit of seeing "secret" and "most hidden meanings" stated in Chapter 1 introducing the letter, makes the entire context of the letter, not just in favour of, but actually about all sorts of hidden allegorical and symbolic interpretations of various NT and OT Scriptures Potamius sees as fitting consubstantiality right from the start.

Stating your opinion again, simply has not advanced your case, yet again.
Last edited by Investigator on Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:18 pm, edited 19 times in total.
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:42 am
Investigator wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:14 am Anyone who has access to Conti's commentary on these specific chapters above, would be most welcome to post them here.
Sounds good.
Although I doubt that he goes much into the four quotes.
Most possible is a reference to the background of his writing to Athanasius.

And I will plan on asking my source.

Also, commentators today often accept textcrit errors about verses, as believers in the NT corrupt critical texts.
Put simply they, and Conti himself disagree with your opinion.
Investigator
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:37 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:42 am
Investigator wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:14 am Anyone who has access to Conti's commentary on these specific chapters above, would be most welcome to post them here.
Sounds good.
Although I doubt that he goes much into the four quotes.
Most possible is a reference to the background of his writing to Athanasius.

And I will plan on asking my source.

Also, commentators today often accept textcrit errors about verses, as believers in the NT corrupt critical texts.

Which begs the question, why can't you provide Conti's commentary on these specific passages?

Are you deliberately hiding them because Conti himself disagrees with you?

If you have to ask someone else (your "source") for Conti's commentary on these passages, that means 1. it is highly probable that you are only familiar with the four quotes from Conti's translation that you've posted a link to, and therefore not Potamius writings as whole (i.e. you HAVEN'T read ALL of Conti's book on Potamius), and 2. therefore you are being dishonest (to varrying degrees) about personally knowing Potamius so well that you feel that you can insinuate to other's on this forum (and elsewhere) that you are some kind of expert on Potamius' literal teaching vs his allegorical teaching style, grammar, etc, and 3. therefore it is highly probable that you truly don't know the entire context of the complete corpus of Potamius' works (which you agree is so important), and 4. therefore it is highly probable that you are more uninformed than informed about Potamius (than you portray), for you to be making such grandiose assertions about Potamius works, writing habits, and thinking!

So which is it Steven?
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