Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Steven Avery
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Invisible allegory is where an allegory is claimed, as arising from a specific verse, and yet the writer never mentions or even alludes to the words in the verse. It is even more emphasized in the heavenly witnesses because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ARE mentioned. There is a literal connection to 1 John 5:7.

1 John 5:7 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.

The ONLY claims of invisible allegory of which I am aware, in the Bible commentaries, are Cyprian and Potamius. Where they reference the heavenly witnesses but they are supposedly thinking of the earthly witnesses. A scholastic joke. If the contras were smart they would concede the point and use the fallback claim that the heavenly witnesses verse was added before Cyprian.

Has nothing to do with the tabernacles.
Can you try to add anything substantive to the discussion?
You are spinning yourself around in circles.
Steven Avery
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Invisible allegory by Cyprian (or other writers like Potamius) is simply an absurd theory.

“a certain mystical interpretation which he (Cyprian) has not given or alluded to, of a verse which he has not quoted!”

The Three Witnesses. The Disputed Text in St. John: Considerations New and Old (1883)
Henry Thomas Armfield
https://books.google.com/books?id=5eQCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA105
Investigator
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:37 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:43 pm Invisible allegory is where an allegory is claimed, as arising from a specific verse, and yet the writer never mentions or even alludes to the words in the verse. It is even more emphasized in the heavenly witnesses because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ARE mentioned. There is a literal connection to 1 John 5:7.

1 John 5:7 (KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.

The ONLY claims of invisible allegory of which I am aware, in the Bible commentaries, are Cyprian and Potamius. Where they reference the heavenly witnesses but they are supposedly thinking of the earthly witnesses. A scholastic joke. If the contras were smart they would concede the point and use the fallback claim that the heavenly witnesses verse was added before Cyprian.

Has nothing to do with the tabernacles.
Can you try to add anything substantive to the discussion?
You are spinning yourself around in circles.

Yes you are spinning around in circles avoiding showing where Potamius explains your "invisible" "analogy" of the "three tents".

There is no visible explanation by Potamius of the "three tents" "analogy", in situ or otherwise.

Without an explanation by Potamius himself of this analogy of how and why the "three tents" for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus are somehow analogous to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is simply an "invisible" analogy that you made up out of your own imagination!
Investigator
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:37 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

"a certain mystical analogy which he (Potamius) has not given or alluded to, of a verse which he has not quoted!”

The Invisible Heavenly Witnesses Analogy. The Disputed Text in St. John: Considerations New and Old (2022)
Me 😄
Steven Avery
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

You come up with a fantasy idea . Waste of time.

This is because you realize that the supposed invisible analogy of Cyprian and Potamius actually referring to "spirit, water and blood", without any hint or mention, (while they mention again and again Father, Son and Holy Spirit) destroys the contra argument.

1 John 5:7-8 (AV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth,
the spirit, and the water, and the blood:
and these three agree in one.

Your convolution is funny.
It is appreciated because it shows the desperation of the contra position.
And it shows your awareness that the invisible allegory point destroys the late contra-Arian interpolation position.
Investigator
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:37 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:47 am
This is because you realize that the supposed invisible analogy of Cyprian and Potamius actually referring to "spirit, water and blood", without any hint or mention, (while they mention again and again Father, Son and Holy Spirit) destroys the contra argument.

This is because you realize Steven that your own invention the supposed "invisible (un-explained) analogy" of Potamius actually referring to the "three tents" from Mark 9:4 Latin versions (or Mark 9:5 Gk-NT), without any hint or mention of "because there are three in heaven who bear witness" 1 John 5:7 or any visible explanation of the supposed analogy to the "three tents" relating somehow to a "tent" for the Father and the "tent" of the Son and "tent" of the Holy Spirit etc etc, while mentioning only 1 John 5:8 last part "et tres unum sunt" exclusively, turns your own argument "invisible (un-explained) analogy" against you, and your weak context argument is null and void because Potamius would simply mention the substance of the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit randomly everywhere in the letter anyway (even if he chose not to use the last part of the authentic text of 1 John 5:8) because (hello!) that's what the title is, and the theme is about!
Last edited by Investigator on Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:52 am, edited 6 times in total.
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Why would Potamius quote Matthew 18:16 "Every verbal statement is to be established upon the basis of two and three witnesses" in favor over or instead of quoting the first part of 1 John 5:7 "because there are three in heaven who bear witness"? :confusedsmiley: :confusedsmiley: :confusedsmiley:
Last edited by Investigator on Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Steven Avery
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Steven Avery »

Investigator wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:41 am
This is because you realize Steven that your own invention the supposed "invisible (un-explained) analogy" of Potamius actually referring to the "three tents" from Mark 9:4 Latin versions (or Mark 9:5 Gk-NT), without any hint or mention of "because there are three in heaven who bear witness" 1 John 5:7 or any visible explanation of the supposed analogy to the "three tents" relating somehow to a "tent" for the Father and the "tent" of the Son and "tent" of the Holy Spirit etc etc, while mentioning only 1 John 5:8 last part "et tres unum sunt" exclusively, turns your own argument "invisible (un-explained) analogy" against you, and your weak context argument is null and void because Potamius would simply mention the substance of the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit randomly everywhere in the letter anyway (even if he chose not to use the last part of the authentic text of 1 John 5:8) because (hello!) that's what the title is, and the theme is about!
Your idea that this is similar to the invisible allegory of spirit, water and blood that you claim for Cyprian and the four Potamius references is total nonsense. When they actually reference the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in all five references, because they were referencing the heavenly witnesses verse.

You simply flunk Logic 101.

However, you have proved that the same nonsense can be repeated dozens of times on forums.
Investigator
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Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:38 pm
Your idea that this is similar to the invisible allegory of spirit, water and blood that you claim for Cyprian and the four Potamius references is total nonsense. When they actually reference the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in all five references, because they were referencing the heavenly witnesses verse.

You simply flunk Logic 101.

However, you have proved that the same nonsense can be repeated dozens of times on forums.

Why, Steven, would Potamius quote Matthew 18:16 "Every verbal statement is to be established upon the basis of two and three witnesses" in favor over or instead of quoting the first part of 1 John 5:7 "because there are three in heaven who bear witness"? :confusedsmiley: :confusedsmiley: :confusedsmiley:
Last edited by Investigator on Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Investigator
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:37 am

Re: Potamius of Lisbon references the heavenly witnesses in writing to Athanasius

Post by Investigator »

Steven Avery wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:38 pm
When they actually reference the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in all five references, because they were referencing the heavenly witnesses verse.

Not true! :eek: :facepalm: :eek:

Potamius doesn't quote or reference the middle part of the counterfeit Latin 1 John 5:7 "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in all five references," as you say. :tomato:

For example, in the reference you assert from the letter addressed to Athanasius, Potamius does not mention: "the Holy Spirit" at all in the context. :goodmorning:

And in Chapter 3 of the letter about the substance of the Father, and the Son and Holy Spirit, Potamius does not quote or write the phrase: "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in the context at all. He uses the post-Biblical word "Trinity", but he does not name "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in the context! :whistling:

In all the references to "et tres unum sunt" Potamius is simply following his habit of showing "the most hidden" and "secret" meanings lying hidden from plain sight within the internal organs (as he calls it) of the Bible. :thumbup:

It's curious and telling that you haven't quoted a single sentence from Potamius outside of these isolated texts (divorced of their context). Why is that Steven? :scratch:

And why have you failed :consternation: to come up with any explanation of why Potamius quoted Matthew 18:16 "Every verbal statement is to be established upon the basis of two and three witnesses" in favor over or instead of quoting the first part of 1 John 5:7 "because there are three in heaven who bear witness"? :confusedsmiley: :confusedsmiley: :confusedsmiley:
Last edited by Investigator on Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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