If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

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Diogenes the Cynic
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by Diogenes the Cynic »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:27 pm On the other hand, there is some work completed by a French scholar that shows if one replaces much of the Greek text of Mark and Matthew with Hebrew/Aramaic then one does encounter a significant number of puns and various wordplays that do not appear in the Greek.


This is easy to do if you get to pick which Aramaic words to use. I bet I could contrive wordplays in Latin and English too.
perseusomega9
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by perseusomega9 »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:48 pm
John2 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:15 pm If we go by what church writers say, Mark was written by a follower of Peter, and I assume Peter spoke Hebrew (and/or Aramaic) and needed help with Greek (as per 1 Peter 5:12, which I think is genuine, and as Josephus did), and Mark's gospel would effectively be a translation of a Hebrew or Aramaic source (i.e., Peter's teachings about Jesus).

And if we take Papias seriously, then there was (in my view) a Hebrew version of Matthew (aka the gospel of the Hebrews) with more than one translation, and I think one of these translations was edited and combined with Mark and became the NT Matthew, and one (if not the same one) was edited and combined with Mark and became a source for the Ebionite Matthew and Marcion's gospel and Luke (which would explain why those gospels resemble each other to a certain extent).
Papias cannot have been talking about any of the Synoptic Gopels. His descriptions do not match them in any way, and none of the Gospels had those names attached to them before Irenaeus gave them the names in 180 CE based on nothing but those descriptions from Papias which do not quote from either Matthew or Mark and cannot be talking about them.

Mark is not a memoir of Peter and doesn't claim to be. Matthew is not a Hebrew sayings gospel.

The Gospels don't just "resemble each other, they are verbatim copies of the same texts.

Doesn't anyone know basic New Testament scholarship anymore?

FYI, no serious scholar thinks any of the Gospels were composed in anything but Greek.
John2 hasn't met a patristic father he didn't whole-heartedly believe.
Charles Wilson
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by Charles Wilson »

Stuart wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:57 pm I'd love for somebody to refute this, and show me a bunch of examples of gospel phrases which are clunky in Greek but lyrical or make great puns in Hebrew. I'd love to practice saying a few of those and admitting I'm wrong. So go for it.
Stuart made an honest request for something from the Aramaicist Community concerning the Aramaic Primacy Argument. I suggested Peshitta.org and the result is underwhelming.

Given that I am not arguing for a bare Aramaic Primacy (It's appears much more complicated than that...) and offered it as an Introduction to the Eastern Thought on the matter I ask:

Did anyone look at the material? It doesn't have to be convincing to you but did anyone in fact look at it?

CW
lsayre
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by lsayre »

Charles Wilson wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:28 am
Did anyone look at the material? It doesn't have to be convincing to you but did anyone in fact look at it?

CW
I spent a fair amount of time on the site, but I got wrapped up in all the China and it's ancient Christian history stuff and likely missed your point. Do you have a specific sub-link that is most relevant?
Charles Wilson
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by Charles Wilson »

lsayre wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:40 am Do you have a specific sub-link that is most relevant?
The Peshitta.org Site will present you with a lot of choices, coincidentally the Categories that Stuart asked about. If you have favorite Passages, go to the Interlinear and compare.
Examples:

Mark 15: 34. Paul Younan, Maintainer of the Site and Translator, has "My God, my God, why have you spared me?" Lamsa has translated it as "My God, my God, for this was I spared?" Of course, the Western View is "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This is a Fundamental Verse pointing out a major difference in Understanding. The Aramaicists have my vote in this one because I believe the person on the Cross WAS spared 12 years earlier but met a tragic end later. I note again that this translation makes NO SENSE to many. This is where your Sense of Analysis demands your attention.

Matthew 18: 3. Younan has, "...and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you CHANGE and become like children..." I very strongly believe that this is more properly translated as, "...unless you TURN and become like children..." since it matches up with the Lukan Passage, "Enter through the narrow door..."

As I say, I believe the Primacy Arguments miss the point. It appears much more complex than first appears. If the Vote for Primacy is in the East, the Aramaic Side might win in a Landslide.

Go to the Forum and pick a Topic and start exploring. Is a Phrase such as "Set his face towards Jerusalem..." an Aramaic Phrase or not? If so, does its appearance guarantee and Aramaic Author's Origin? Not necessarily.

GJohn is quite complex. A Greekie such as Teeple will show that there are at least 5 Authors of the Greek Manuscript of John, discernable by paying attention to Arthrous and Anarthrous Names and Syntax:

"One feature in particular is prevalent enough and distinctive enough to prove the existence of a source G: the possessive adjective, with the article repeated with both the adjective and the noun occurs in John 29 times and   every occurrence is in G..."

Now, this is interesting if the Aramaic Version of John came first. Does the Aramaic exhibit this Structure? How would you know?

Finally, there are Books of the Western NT that are not in the Eastern Version, including Revelation. I see much in the way of Historical Readings, including a large section that might begin with Luke 2: 36 - 37 (RSV):

[36] And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.

This is Aramaic/Hebrew Material. It references Queen Salome, wife of Jannaeus. It contradicts Josephus directly. It tells of Pompey and may tell a fascinating Story of Rhododendron Honey. [Edit Note: The Link for this Story must run from Luke to Revelation.] It's not in the Aramaic Peshitta.
***
I urge you to take some time to read some of this material. It may not be convincing in the long run but, Believe me when I tell ya', there is much to learn that will help you understand.

CW
John2
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by John2 »

perseusomega9 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:53 am
John2 hasn't met a patristic father he didn't whole-heartedly believe.

No, but in this case I think Papias (yes, via Eusebius) is a great source.
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mlinssen
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by mlinssen »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:48 pm Papias cannot have been talking about any of the Synoptic Gopels. His descriptions do not match them in any way, and none of the Gospels had those names attached to them before Irenaeus gave them the names in 180 CE based on nothing but those descriptions from Papias which do not quote from either Matthew or Mark and cannot be talking about them.

Mark is not a memoir of Peter and doesn't claim to be. Matthew is not a Hebrew sayings gospel.

The Gospels don't just "resemble each other, they are verbatim copies of the same texts.

Doesn't anyone know basic New Testament scholarship anymore?

FYI, no serious scholar thinks any of the Gospels were composed in anything but Greek.
Hear hear.
Sometimes I think that "scholars" find themselves caught in the holes they dug themselves and decide to dig new ones instead of getting themselves out.
It might be a cunning plan aimed to distract, though
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neilgodfrey
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by neilgodfrey »

Diogenes the Cynic wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:53 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:27 pm On the other hand, there is some work completed by a French scholar that shows if one replaces much of the Greek text of Mark and Matthew with Hebrew/Aramaic then one does encounter a significant number of puns and various wordplays that do not appear in the Greek.


This is easy to do if you get to pick which Aramaic words to use. I bet I could contrive wordplays in Latin and English too.
How many word choices would there be for each Greek word in Mark's gospel?

It's easy to imagine contriving tailored wordplays in Latin -- but I would be interested if you could demonstrate that with just a small sample or two. (English is hardly a fair comparison with Aramaic given its singular status of having so many word choices given its historical development.)
Charles Wilson
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by Charles Wilson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:18 am How many word choices would there be for each Greek word in Mark's gospel?

It's easy to imagine contriving tailored wordplays in Latin -- but I would be interested if you could demonstrate that with just a small sample or two. (English is hardly a fair comparison with Aramaic given its singular status of having so many word choices given its historical development.)
William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology:

"Mucianus was not only a general and a statesman, but an orator and an historian. His powers of oratory are greatly praised by Tacitus, who tells us that Mucianus could address an auditory even in Greek with great effect He made a collection of the speeches of the republican period, which he arranged and published in eleven books of Acta and three of Epistolae..."

Jus' sayin'...
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neilgodfrey
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Re: If the synoptic gospels are three different translations of a common Hebrew or Aramaic source

Post by neilgodfrey »

Charles Wilson wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:34 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:18 am How many word choices would there be for each Greek word in Mark's gospel?

It's easy to imagine contriving tailored wordplays in Latin -- but I would be interested if you could demonstrate that with just a small sample or two. (English is hardly a fair comparison with Aramaic given its singular status of having so many word choices given its historical development.)
William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology:

"Mucianus was not only a general and a statesman, but an orator and an historian. His powers of oratory are greatly praised by Tacitus, who tells us that Mucianus could address an auditory even in Greek with great effect He made a collection of the speeches of the republican period, which he arranged and published in eleven books of Acta and three of Epistolae..."

Jus' sayin'...
What are you "jus' sayin" that in any way addresses my query? I don't see any connection. Something is too subtle for me; please spell it out.
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