Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by Giuseppe »

To the Romans VI
"Suffer me to be eaten by the wild beasts through whom I can attain to God.... Rather entice the wild beasts that they may become my tomb, and leave no trace of my body.... Then shall I be truly a disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not even see my body".

StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by StephenGoranson »

maybe you mean chapter 4, not 6 (Lightfoot trans.):
CHAPTER 4
4:1 I write to all the churches, and I bid all men
know, that of my own free will I die for God, unless
ye should hinder me. I exhort you, be ye not an
unseasonable kindness to me. Let me be given to the
wild beasts, for through them I can attain unto God. I
am God's wheat, and I am ground by the teeth of wild
beasts that I may be found pure bread [of Christ].
4:2 Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may
become my sepulchre and may leave no part of my body
behind, so that I may not, when I am fallen asleep, be
burdensome to any one. Then shall I be truly a
disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not so
much as see my body. Supplicate the Lord for me, that
through these instruments I may be found a sacrifice
to God.

Does this refer to the body of Ignatius (in his wish) and have nothing to do with mythicism?
Giuseppe
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by Giuseppe »


"when the world shall not so
much as see my body".

Does this sound as a not so implicit recognition that the "world" didn't see the body of Jesus on earth?

Just as the enemies of Ignatius were going to claim.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Imo, no.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by Giuseppe »

Hence, why did Ignatius assume that the world didn't see the Jesus' body? During the Ascension? After the Ascension?

Or during the same "life"?
StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Ignatius wrote about his own (Ignatius') body.
Notice that you switched from a claim about Ignatius to a claim about Ignatius' enemies.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by Giuseppe »

  • 1) Ignatius wrote about his own (Ignatius') body, in explicit comparison with the Jesus' body.
  • 2) That the enemies of Ignatius denied the historicity of Jesus is a FACT:

    “ I have heard certain men say : If I do not find (a certain thing) in the archives, I do not believe in the Gospel. And as I replied to them : It is written (in the Old Testament) they answered : ‘ That is the very question.’ But for me the archives are Jesus Christ, His cross, His death. His resurrection, and the faith which comes from Him.”

    (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians)

    The "archives" can't be the Old Testament, since Ignatius refers these researchers of the Historical Jesus to the Old Testament as "evidence" (since they had not verified still the Old Testament but only the "archives" before that time), therefore gaining as response:

    That is the very question

    The "question" for them was that the only evidence (given by the Christians) of the historicity of Jesus was just the Old Testament.

    They denied the historicity of Jesus as built only from OT prophecies.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Apparently you have mixed up what Ignatius thought with what others may or may not have thought.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:32 am To the Romans VI
"Suffer me to be eaten by the wild beasts through whom I can attain to God.... Rather entice the wild beasts that they may become my tomb, and leave no trace of my body.... Then shall I be truly a disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not even see my body".

The "when" refers back to "then" and "then" refers to the disappearance of Ignatius's body into the bellies of the beasts -- his death.

So "when" shall the world not even see his body? It will no longer see it "then". When is "then"? After his body vanishes into the bowels of the wild beasts.

Yes, he speaks of "only then" being a true disciple -- as if that kind of disciple can only be found after death. While alive he cannot be a perfect disciple. He can only be a perfect, complete, disciple when he has passed from this earthly life.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Was Ignatius a Mythicist?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Instead of giving an unusual interpretation of a sentence fragment, one might check other passages to find what Ignatius reportedly thought, e.g., via Jonathon Lookadoo in Cambridge Companion to the Apostolic Fathers (2021) page 217:

Such high ways of speaking about Jesus do not prohibit Ignatius from speaking of Jesus’ humanity in emphatic terms. One of the most striking expressions occurs at the end of the letter to the Ephesians, where Ignatius lists monumental disruptions to the normal economy of the world that occurred when God appeared “humanly” (anthro-poˉpinoˉs; Ign.Eph.19.3). Earlier in the letter, Ignatius vividly speaks of “God’s blood”(Ign.Eph.1.1), while he also mentions the birth (Ign.Eph.18.2–19.1; Magn.11) and death (Ign.Eph.7.2; Smyrn.1.2; Pol.1.2) of Jesus regularly in the letters. Allusions to Jesus’ suffering also recur in Ignatius’ rhetoric (Ign.Rom.6.3;Phld. inscr.). Talk of agony ultimately gives way to resurrection and the hope of life found therein (Ign.Magn.9.1;Trall.9.2). Throughout the letters, Ignatius emphasizes Jesus’ flesh (sarx). He illustrates the fleshly reality of Jesus’ corporeal existence before and after the resurrection with reference to the food and drink that he consumed (Ign.Trall.9.1;Smyrn.3.1–3).
One means by which Ignatius brings these portrayals of Jesus together is by referring to the unity of flesh and spirit that Jesus embodies (Ign.Eph.7.2;Smyrn.3.3;12.2). Jesus belongs to David’s line and is also Son of God (Ign.Eph.20.2;Smyrn.1.1).31.....
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