Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:19 am Not only. I have seen the file doc uploaded by mlinssen, and it is not what I would have wanted, i.e., the file pdf written by Chris previously on academia.edu. :roll:
I got it from Academia.edu Giuseppe. I have a few versions, they're all .docx. They are guaranteed his and not mine, but I'll see what I have in store (I'm on mobile then and now)

[EDIT] No luck on the networks. Apparently, Chris only made it to my mobile
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

I don't normally come here anymore, nor do I have any intent on making this a regular thing. To address the "obscure" reasons I left and dropped off the face of the earth:

Between threats on my livelihood, and more for my part in cataloguing and publishing against mythicism, I have essentially decided that I will never enter the field of NT (and once the few articles left which have been accepted are published, I will be moving on to things I actually find enjoyment in).

I believe Giuseppe is referring to the book I wrote, not the list. I took it down, at the time, because I had found a publisher (I was working with Wipf&Stock). However, around November, in the midst of rather immature and insulting comments I made (several of which were directed toward Neil for which I do sincerely apologize and hope Neil can forgive me), with the bonus of real life threats (one of which required a police report; it was a fiasco) all tied to mythicism, I exited my contract and deleted my accounts starting in November. The book is, at this point, dead and I have no intentions on publishing or sharing it.

I do keep an updated list of mythicist material I stumble across for those curious.

For Chinese Mythicism, there are some easy starting points in English. Check out the Chinese Faces of Jesus Vol. 3b edited by Roman Malek. Wang Xiaochao's (one of the leading scholars of Christianity in China atm) article on Marxism and Jesus goes over the issue with some needed historical context. I would also suggest his article (as well as Choong Chee Pang's) in Christianity and Chinese Culture, edited Mikka Ruokanen and Paulos Huang. Both are in English and readily available. Unfortunately, Chinese mythicism is really hard to find anything about.

From what I can find, mythicism in China ceased to be the academic majority position around the mid-90's after the mixtures of the Open Door Policy and also the end of the New Culture Movement with the death of Chairman Mao Zedong and the publication of Document 19 after the Eleventh Congress of the CCP. This was a parallel situation to Russia, where the Khrushchev Thaw was the leading cause, since it opened up academic freedoms. The publication of Archibald Robertson's book after the Thaw sparked the debates there and essentially led to "Mythological School's" decline.
Last edited by Chrissy Hansen on Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Giuseppe »

Thank you, Chris.
I was interested about your classification of Mythicists, particularly the specific terms you have used to distinguish 'pure' Mythicists from historicists (for example, Lena Einhorn) who assume a different time from traditional for their historical Jesus.

Obviously, if it is your will, I give up to find it.
Best prosecution,
Giuseppe
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Ah, here is the terminology I used in my book:
Traditional Historicist: One who accepts that an identifiable single figure of the New Testament (though not necessarily as the New Testament authors describe him), named Jesus, most likely existed in Judea. This is an umbrella term that can accept Evangelical or Liberal perspectives.

Composite Theorist: One who holds to the “Jesus” of the New Testament being a composite of a number of historical figures. Composite Theorists can fall into Mythicism or Historicity or blur the lines, ascribing the Gospel Jesus to historical and mythical figures.

Temporal Historicist: One who holds that Jesus most likely existed, but in a different timeframe than described in traditional settings or in the New Testament. They hold that Jesus did exist.

Identity Historicist: One who views Jesus as being historical but actually a different figure, usually from other sources in the past, so they will identify him with another person from history. Identity Historicists are often also Temporal Historicists.

Jesus Agnostic: One who does not assign a truth value to the historical existence of Jesus, they do not say he existed or did not exist, holding that we do not have enough data to determine one way or the other. They make a positive case for agnosticism.

Mythicist: One who argues that it is most likely that Jesus did not exist as a historical entity in any form at all, a la a celestial figure or an invented allegory. These figures are those who hold to the Christ Myth Theory. They make a case against historicity.

Jesus Skepticism: This is the parent category of those who possess doubts over the historical personage of Jesus. This is a more general category which is nonspecific and does not serve to conflate the above. Those who are in this category are Mythicists, Jesus Agnostics, Identity Historicists, Temporal Historicist, and Composite Theorists. Just as with the category nontheist in philosophy, the positions in this are to be regarded as, to varying extents, mutually exclusive and we should not lose sight of their nuances. The defining trait of this category is that those in it are Non-Traditionalists when it comes to Jesus’ historicity. Beyond that, their positions can be entirely mutually exclusive.
Composite Theorists, Temporal Historicists, and Identity Historicists often all overlap (but not always). They often also overlap with mythicists, since many mythicists think Jesus is a composite of mythical figures. Other composite theorists think he is a composite of historical and mythical figures, while others think he was a composite of only historical figures.
Last edited by Chrissy Hansen on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Anyways, hope this all helps everyone. Peace be on you all, and hope you have a good day.

Best,

Chris
Giuseppe
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Giuseppe »

Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:25 am
Temporal Historicist: One who holds that Jesus most likely existed, but in a different timeframe than described in traditional settings or in the New Testament. They hold that Jesus did exist.

Identity Historicist: One who views Jesus as being historical but actually a different figure, usually from other sources in the past, so they will identify him with another person from history. Identity Historicists are often also Temporal Historicists.
That is what I wanted, thanks.

Last question: what is the difference, if it is there, between Temporal Historicists and Identity Historicists?
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:51 am
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:25 am
Temporal Historicist: One who holds that Jesus most likely existed, but in a different timeframe than described in traditional settings or in the New Testament. They hold that Jesus did exist.

Identity Historicist: One who views Jesus as being historical but actually a different figure, usually from other sources in the past, so they will identify him with another person from history. Identity Historicists are often also Temporal Historicists.
That is what I wanted, thanks.

Last question: what is the difference, if it is there, between Temporal Historicists and Identity Historicists?
Most identity historicists are temporal historicists, but not all temporal historicists are identity historicists. Some Temporal Historicists think Jesus of Nazareth was the person, but he lived in a different time-frame (often using the Talmud as their justification). However, they don't think his identity is different from Jesus of Nazareth. Identity Historicists argue that Jesus was a different figure altogether (The Egyptian, Honi the Circle-Drawer, Basil the Great, King Tut, etc. and yes all those have been suggested). This often includes with it a shift in temporality as well, so most (not all but most) Identity Historicists are also Temporal Historicists, but this is not the same vice versa.

Anyways, I am gonna go now. Best to you all.
Giuseppe
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Re: Chinese mythicism and rebuttals

Post by Giuseppe »

It is clear, :cheers: thank you again and best to you, too.
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