Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

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Secret Alias
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Secret Alias »

Why can't you understand that 'to release' is not the same thing as 'to escape'? This is a basic concept.

Escape - To get free, to free oneself.
Release - The event of setting (someone or something) free (e.g. hostages, slaves, prisoners, caged animals, hooked or stuck mechanisms).

https://wikidiff.com/release/escape#:~: ... let%20back.
Secret Alias
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Secret Alias »

A prisoner can escape on his own accord. But release is so inextricably grounded in ANOTHER PERSON providing freedom that in English at least you have to add 'yourself' 'oneself' 'himself' in order to correct the underlying assumption.
Giuseppe
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Giuseppe »

you are trolling. I have quoted experts and sources mentioning 'release' among the possible meanings of PLT. In Qumran, the meaning of 'release' is even the more diffuse.

Aramaic texts from Qumran make frequent use of the verb plt peal/pael in the sense of "escape, release."

https://books.google.it/books?id=TyJBBD ... er&f=false

At any case, the divine coincidence above (see the two photos) is that Charles Perrault names the poor possessor of the Cat in Boots the "marquis of Carabas".

Just as the poor possessor of the Cat in Boots becomes rich by the services of the Cat in Boots,
so Agrippas in virtue of a friendship becomes rich by the services of Caligula: a kind of shoes (=caligae) !

Carabas is Agrippas for the Alexandrians, docet Philo.
Giuseppe
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Giuseppe »

As Aaron releases (פלט) the goat for Hayom Kippur, so Pilate=(פילטוס) releases (פלת) Barabbas in proximity of Pesach.
Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:54 am But release is so inextricably grounded in ANOTHER PERSON providing freedom that in English at least you have to add 'yourself' 'oneself' 'himself' in order to correct the underlying assumption.
I have shown you who is, not coincidentially, the ANOTHER PERSON providing freedom, respectively in the midrashical source and in its Gospel clone.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Charles Wilson »

I call on Stephan Huller to go back to his book and quote from it as to what Caligula did to Agrippa.
Perhaps I remembered it wrong - I'll have to dig out my copy from The-Other-Room - but there is a sub-text here and it ain't pretty.

What did Caligula do to Agrippa?

CW
Secret Alias
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Secret Alias »

I would be interested in seeing the examples of פלט in Hebrew which relate to the scapegoat. And with respect to Pilate's actions what is your source for the idea that Pilate 'delivered' Barabas? Pilate is a historical person. I am not understanding you. Pilate isn't liberating or delivering Barabas when Barabas is his prisoner. He is in chains because of Pilate. Pilate can 'release' him but he can't deliver him.

קומה יהוה קדמה פניו הכריעהו פלטה נפשי מרשע חרבך

Arise O LORD disappoint him cast him down deliver my soul from the wicked which is thy sword

תפלטני מריבי עם תשימני לראש גוים עם לא־ידעתי יעבדוני

Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people and thou hast made me the head of the heathen a people whom I have not known shall serve me

מפלטי מאיבי אף מן־קמי תרוממני מאיש חמס תצילני

He delivers me from my enemies; Surely You lift me above those who rise up against me; You rescue me from the violent man.

You can't deliver someone who belongs to you. You can only deliver them FROM someone or FROM something else. Yahweh is the Deliverer of Israel because he delivers them FROM others not FROM himself.
Giuseppe
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:40 pmYahweh is the Deliverer of Israel because he delivers them FROM others not FROM himself.
As if the 'others' were not sent by YHWH to punish Israel for his sins.

As if the prison from which Barabbas is freed was not property of Pilate.


release in Hebrew
פָּלַט verb

LINK
פָּלַט - Hebrew-English dictionary
TRANSLATIONS
discharge · eject · exhaust · expel · release
TRANSLITERATION
pá̇lat

https://en.glosbe.com/he/en/%D7%A4%D6%B ... 6%B7%D7%98
Giuseppe
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Giuseppe »

A scholar talks about Jonah who is vomited by the great fish. And he adds:

The word “vomit” is also thought to evoke negative connotations; the word in Hebrew is qy’. While there is a more delicate word for ejection (e.g. plṭ Hiph.), the narrator chooses a more distasteful image (cf. the use of qy’ as in Prov 23:8; 25:16). “

https://digitalcommons.providence.edu/c ... ate_theses

In place of saying:
  • the fish vomits Jonah
...a more delicate way would be to say:
  • The fish expels/releases Jonah.
Same fate of the goat in the wilderness.

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by neilgodfrey »

Release or Deliver??

I've been following the sources cited so far in this thread and another one of my own.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament has not been cited so far but it tells me that the PLT root or "palat" = "escape, save, deliver" [from death, from enemies, etc] -- not "release", which, as Secret A points out, requires two parties.

1774 פָּלַט (palat) escape, save, deliver.

Derivatives

1774a פלט (pallet) deliverance (Ps 32:7; 56:8, only).
1774b פליט+ (palit) fugitive.
1774c פליט (palet) fugitive.
1774d פליטהל (p eleta) escape.
1774e מפלט (miplat) escape (Ps 55:9).

The verb palat appears twenty-seven times in the OT, of which nineteen are in the Psalter. The verb always occurs in the Piel, except for its usages in Isa 5:29, Hiphil, and Ezk 7:16 (Qal). Da- hood has suggested repointing the Piel in Job 23:7 to a Qal, and reading, "I would forever escape his condemnation.”

As we indicated above, the verb palat is confined primarily to the Ps. The only places palat occurs in the Piel outside of the Ps (or parallel passages to Psalm verses) are: Mic 6:14, “You shall store away (food) but never ‘preserve’”; Job 21:10, "His cow 'calves’ (i.e. escapes from the womb) with no loss”; Job 23:7 (in kjv), “so should I be ‘delivered’ forever from my judge.”

It can be observed then that the verb palat in the sense of "rescue, deliver” is limited to poetry in the OT. In the Psalter the verb is always on the lips of the Psalmist addressed to God either in the form of a testimony of praise for deliverance or, palat is in the form of an imperative, seeking God’s deliverance. In 43:1 and 71:2 we find illustrations of palat in the imperfect, but with imperative function. Only in Ps 91:14 is God the subject of the verb, "I will deliver him.”

A frequent parallel of palat is ‘azar "to help, assist” as in Ps 37:40; 40:17 [H 18); 70:5 (H 6). Cf. the Ugaritic passage, aqht ypltk bn dnil wy'drk, "And (call) Aqhat and let him save you, Daniel’s son, and let him rescue you," 3 Aqht; rev 13-14.

palit. Fugitive, escapee. . . .

p‘leta. Escape, survival . . . .

At that point I was suspecting that Dubourg was wrong -- or the French word relâcher had connotations I was unaware of.

Giuseppe cited https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... 0/wlc/0-1/ --- here there is no reference to "release" but the following meanings are listed:

escape, save, deliver, slip away

(Qal) to escape

(Piel)

to bring into security, deliver

to cause to escape, cast forth

to be delivered

to slip away

(Hiphil) to bring into security, bring to safety

"to cause to escape, cast forth" does sound synonymous with "release".

But then The Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament has this comment:

Aramaic texts from Qumran make frequent use of the verb pit peal/pael in the sense of *,escape, release."115 The verb pit appears three times in the Genesis Apocryphon. The survivors of the flood give thanks to the Most High for saving them from destruction (pael, 12:17; cf. Jub. 7:34). In a dream God tells Abraham that, for the sake of Sarai, his life will be spared (peal, 19:20; cf. Gen. 12:13). The story of Lot tells of a shepherd ‘*who had escaped from captivity" (peal, IQapGen 22:2). The pael of plf. ‘‘release." is used in 1 lQtgJob 39:3 for the life that birth brings into the world.116 The books of Enoch contain an apocalyptic passage that says that at the last judgment "the truthful shall be saved" (peal. 4QEnc = 1 Enoch 10:17).,, ד These Aramaic occurrences in the Dead Sea Scrolls correspond to forms of Heb. pit.

Hasel

115. Beyer. 668.
116. Ibid.. 296; B. Jongeling. C. J. Labuschagne. and A. S. van der Woude, Aramaic Texts from Qumran. SSS 4 (1976): “usher in."

I can't find Aramaic Texts from Qumran online, so moving on to Beyer -- Die aramäischen Texte vom Toten Meer --

sure enough, there are two examples of ptl being used in the sense of release -- but this is Aramaic, not Hebrew, and Dubourg, from what I understand so far, is stressing the role of Hebrew as distinct from Aramaic (though someone can correct me on that point.)

p. 296: 39: 1 [Kennst du den Zeitpunkt des Gebärens] der Felsenziegen, und die Wehen [der Hirschkühe . . .]? 2 Zählst [du] ihre Monate, daß sie voll sind, und kennst du den Zeitpunkt ihres Gebärens? 3 Sie gebären ihre Jungen und geben (sie) frei, und schickst du ihre Wehen weg?

=

1 [Do you know the time of childbearing] of the goats of the rock, and the labor [of the hinds . . .]? 2. Do [you] count their months, that they are full,
and knowest thou the time of their parturition? 3 They give birth to their young and release (them), and do you send away their labor pains?

That looks like a Targum and I don't know its relationship to "Die aramäischen Texte vom Toten Meer".

The second example is from the Genesis Apokryphon, 22.2

[box=ivory2 Kleinviehs, das (oder: die) Abram dem Lot geschenkt hatte, der aus der Gefangenschaft entkommen war, kam zu Abram — Abram aber wohnte damals

=

2 Small cattle, which (or: which) Abram had given to Lot, who had escaped from captivity, came to Abram - but Abram lived at that time[/box]

As for Leviticus 16, it is not Aaron or a priest who "releases" the goat but some random "fit man".

As for Dubourg's point, his comment is that Pilate wanted to release Jesus but was unable to do so because of crowd pressure.

Je note d'autre part que la racine PLT (qui figure dans « Pilate ») signifie en hébreu « libérer », « relâcher » - simple remarque en passant (Pilate n'est-il pas celui qui désire relâcher Jésus ?)...

=
I also note that the root PLT (which appears in "Pilate") means in Hebrew "to free", "to release" - a simple remark in passing (isn't Pilate the one who wants to release Jesus?)...

But Pilate does not "release" Jesus in the gospels though that's what he wanted to do. He does, however, "deliver up" Jesus to death, and the Jews themselves are also said to "deliver" Jesus to death. Paul says Christ was "delivered up".

If there is a parallel to Caligula releasing Agrippa from prison and making him tetrarch, it is an ironic parallel.

Dubourg writes

Tibère meurt . . . et Caligula accède au trône. Il relâche . . . son ami Agrippa et le fait - revirement on ne peut plus inattendu - tétrarque à la place de tous les roitelets de Palestine : Agrippa porte à présent la couronne.

=

Tiberius dies ... and Caligula takes the throne. He releases ... his friend Agrippa and makes him - an unexpected turn of events - tetrarch instead of all the kings of Palestine: Agrippa now wears the crown.

Pilate does not release Jesus though he wanted to. He does, however "deliver him" to death. The irony, of course, is that Jesus' death means salvation/deliverance for both himself and others.

But that's not the meaning of "release" in Leviticus 16 and of course there is no PTL in Leviticus 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Caligula RELEASED (=PLT) Agrippas to make him the King of Jews

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:04 am

Dubourg writes

Tibère meurt . . . et Caligula accède au trône. Il relâche . . . son ami Agrippa et le fait - revirement on ne peut plus inattendu - tétrarque à la place de tous les roitelets de Palestine : Agrippa porte à présent la couronne.

=

Tiberius dies ... and Caligula takes the throne. He releases ... his friend Agrippa and makes him - an unexpected turn of events - tetrarch instead of all the kings of Palestine: Agrippa now wears the crown.

Pilate does not release Jesus though he wanted to. He does, however "deliver him" to death. The irony, of course, is that Jesus' death means salvation/deliverance for both himself and others.

But that's not the meaning of "release" in Leviticus 16 and of course there is no PTL in Leviticus 16.
You are correct that Dubourg finds only the 'coincidence', and he interprets it in the light of a Pilate who wants to release Jesus contra factum.

But it is Maurice Mergui who, building on Dubourg's finding, finds the best parallelism with Pilate who releases Barabbas hence with Leviticus 16.

Note that Pilate releases also the Jesus's corpse. Coincidence?

I don't understand why you insist in saying that release requires 2 parties.
Release is the same meaning of: to expel, to eject. The two parties are involved.

2 (trans.) to eject JLAtg, PTA, Syr, JBA, LJLA. TgJ Jonah2:11 : וַאֲמַר יוי לְנוּנָא וֻפלַט יָת יוֹנָה לְיַבַשתָא‏ the Lord spoke to the fish and it ejected Jonah onto the dry land. TN Lev18:28 : ולא תפלוט ארעא יתכון בסאבותכון יתה‏ the land will not eject you when you defile it. P Jonah2:11 : ܘܦܠܛܗ ܠܝܘܢܢ ܠܝܒܫܐ‏ . BT Ḥul 108b(11) : דמיבלע בלע מיפלט לא פליט‏ (the meat) will certainly absorb (the milk, but) it will definitely not discharge (it). PJ Lev18:25 : ופלטת ארעא ית דיירהא‏ the land ejected its inhabitants. (a) to bring forth Syr. Bhce3 211:17 . (a.1) to give birth Qumran, Syr. 11QtgJob 32.2=39:3 : ילדן בניהן ויפלטן‏ . P Is66:7 : ܘܬܦܠܛ ܕܟܪܐ‏ . (a.2) to bring out faded writing JBA. BT Git 19b(47) : אי פליט פליט ואי לא פליט לא כלו׳ הוא‏ if (the treatment with an extract of pomegranate peels) enhances (the faded writing) it is well. If it does not enhance (it) there is nothing. (b) to vomit JBA. BT Ned 49b(18) : כל מדעם לא תפלוט קמי רבא לבר מן קר׳ ודייס׳‏ do not disgorge anything before your teacher except for a gourd and a d'-dish. (c) to spit out Sam, LJLA. TgJob30:14 : בתקוף פלטית גללי ימא אתיין תחות רגושא מתגלגלין‏ I spit out the sea's waves with strength, coming and rolling beneath the tumult.

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