“Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
brewskiMarc
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“Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by brewskiMarc »

“Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.”

What? Yeah, and? And??!!

A lot of people have trouble with the end of Mark. At least the end at 16:8. It’s seems kinda unsatisfying. Or at least un-done. Is it really where Mark ended? Was there more, lost very early on? I’ve gone back and forth on that myself, reading myriad guesses, analyses and creative solutions. Hey, John has an extra ending. It sorta kinda fits in there nicely? Right? Let’s use that.

Ultimately I came to peace with Mark ending right where it does. And, if you don’t mind trudging through a bit of reading, I’ll illustrate for you how I got there.

Suppose I wanted to make my own version of the Titanic disaster?

The protagonist is a ship inspector by the name of Joshua Oyl. (No relation to Olive.) He is talking to the architect, the engineer and the builder. Telling them the iron rivets they are using will be too weak. They need to order good ones immediately.
But they balk: “We don’t have the budget or time for that. So… what are ya gonna do?


Next he is talking to the auditors and investors, begging them to add more lifeboats. They don’t have enough.
“We have exactly enough. No more than we’re required to have!”
Joshua pleads with them, pointing out that it’s is not enough to carry all the passengers. And that their publicity aside, the ship is NOT unsinkable
And they Auditors and Investors say, “Eh! What are ya gonna do?

Cross-wipe to the ship.

We are on the maiden voyage. Joshua is onboard and looking very concerned, telling the captain he is going much too fast. Ice has been spotted in the area.
But I want to get in ahead of schedule. So speed on. What are ya gonna do?


The Lookout calls, “Iceberg dead ahead!”
Joshua firmly tells the captain not to reverse engines and try to maneuver around it. It’ll be better to hit it head on.
“What? That’ll ground us!”
Joshua shakes his head, saying it’s better than sinking.
Eh, what are ya gonna do? Reverse engines!


The ship’s hull scrapes along the iceberg. Water starts pouring in. Joshua’s quick analysis confirms that too many compartments have been breached. Even with the watertight doors, the ship cannot remain afloat. She is sinking. There are 2,220 people onboard. And only enough space in the lifeboats for 1,178. The captain looks at Joshua with terror in his eyes. “What are we gonna do??

Joshua stares at him.

Dissolve to Black
Roll Credits

Do we need more? Do we need to see the ship sink? Passages vie desperately for space in a lifeboat? The Propeller Guy ping! into the ocean? Do we need to hear Joshua say, “I told you so”?

No. Just dissolve to black and roll the credits.

And that’s exactly how Mark ended.
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mlinssen
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by mlinssen »

Yes, it is a perfect ending really, nothing more to it

Texts have goals, and when a text is published, that goal usually is deemed fulfilled. But over the course of centuries, people will look at it and change the context that the text is in, whereas the content of a text is always written in its own context - context which is not in the text itself, perhaps sometimes in an Introduction, Acknowledgments, all that Jazz. Nowt of that in the Roman writings that have come to be labelled canonicals

"Jesus" just had to die and "rise", that's it. It is only in Matthew that we catch a glimpse of the context that got formed after mark: wild accusations that the naughty disciples had removed the body. Which of course, even if they had existed, they were perfectly incapable of, as they were ignorant to the bone, perhaps even beyond that

So yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Worse (or better), I even think that 15:39 is a fine ending
brewskiMarc
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by brewskiMarc »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:39 pm So yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Worse (or better), I even think that 15:39 is a fine ending
Now that you mention it, it DOES sound like a good place to end it. (Provided it's not spoken by John Wayne.)

We know how these things go. Layers upon layers. An earlier version ended there. Not good enough for a reviser, so a bit more tacked on. And so on.
Charles Wilson
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by Charles Wilson »

http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark16.html#16X

If you scroll up a bit you can find a very reasonable Construction for the ending of Mark:

"...
B
and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.
A
It was the last day of the feast of the unleavened bread and many people were going out, returning to their houses since the festival was over.
(Gospel of Peter)

The lack of an A bracket to oppose 16:2 suggests that the Gospel originally ended at some point past 16:8, and that the current ending was not in fact the original ending."

CW

PS: Your complaint concerning my treatment of Mark falls a little short. Each statement I made has been backed with research On-The-Ground, not Pie-In-The-Sky. In fact, my criticisms frequently question those who assert that a cross-cultural, cross-linguistic savior-god who magically appears spouting aphorisms is more reasonable than seeing evidence from a Settlement in Galilee that actually existed.

Existence is not a Predicate, except in the case of "Jesus". There are atheists who believe in "Jesus", the Son of God, who doesn't exist.
Go figure...
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mlinssen
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by mlinssen »

brewskiMarc wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:46 pm
Now that you mention it, it DOES sound like a good place to end it. (Provided it's not spoken by John Wayne.)
Clint would solve any problems there, easily. Although he'd be very unbelievable as a Roman soldier.
Would "Mad Max" Mel Gibson do? In the light of his version of Jesus, I think it would make for a hilariatic ending LOL

Ben Hur! I'll settle for Charlton Heston but I fear that he would never fit into such a tiny role. A cameo perhaps, then?
brewskiMarc
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by brewskiMarc »

Charles Wilson wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:03 pm http://www.michaelturton.com/Mark/GMark16.html#16X

If you scroll up a bit you can find a very reasonable Construction for the ending of Mark:

"...
B
and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.
A
It was the last day of the feast of the unleavened bread and many people were going out, returning to their houses since the festival was over.
(Gospel of Peter)

The lack of an A bracket to oppose 16:2 suggests that the Gospel originally ended at some point past 16:8, and that the current ending was not in fact the original ending."

CW

PS: Your complaint concerning my treatment of Mark falls a little short. Each statement I made has been backed with research On-The-Ground, not Pie-In-The-Sky. In fact, my criticisms frequently question those who assert that a cross-cultural, cross-linguistic savior-god who magically appears spouting aphorisms is more reasonable than seeing evidence from a Settlement in Galilee that actually existed.

Existence is not a Predicate, except in the case of "Jesus". There are atheists who believe in "Jesus", the Son of God, who doesn't exist.
Go figure...
Not a complaint, I assure you. Only an admission of my own limits with respect to some analyses. I liked yours, but it's more than I can wrap my poor head around.

Similar for Michael Turton's work. I read every page of it ages ago when I was on here before. Couldn't get enough of it. But again, I found myself challenged to get it sometimes. I couldn't always see the brackets and connections he presented. That's me, though.
brewskiMarc
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by brewskiMarc »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:29 pm
brewskiMarc wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 12:46 pm
Now that you mention it, it DOES sound like a good place to end it. (Provided it's not spoken by John Wayne.)
Clint would solve any problems there, easily. Although he'd be very unbelievable as a Roman soldier.
Would "Mad Max" Mel Gibson do? In the light of his version of Jesus, I think it would make for a hilariatic ending LOL

Ben Hur! I'll settle for Charlton Heston but I fear that he would never fit into such a tiny role. A cameo perhaps, then?
Three takes on the Calvary Hill Gang:

Clint: Sudden Impale (Magnum Opus?)
Mel: Lethal Weepin'
Chuck: Planet of the Apex

The mind boggles!
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DCHindley
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by DCHindley »

brewskiMarc wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:46 pm Similar for Michael Turton's work. I read every page of it ages ago when I was on here before. Couldn't get enough of it. But again, I found myself challenged to get it sometimes. I couldn't always see the brackets and connections he presented. That's me, though.
I haven't seen Michael Turton for ages. He's still around, I think. Was teaching English in Taiwan/Formosa. We had a very pleasant talk in the day about what it was like for him to get his foot in the door and progress to better paying, and less demanding, jobs. To be honest, I did not follow his posts about religion very closely. Not that they were bad, just misdirected in my POV, but I don't see things like most people do anyways.

You see, he is an Imperial Auditor, and I am a State Auditor, which means in theory we should be able to communicate, but he was not amused by my kind of auditing. He wants to ferret out secrets, I just like to make sense out of nonsense. There's things to learn from payrolls, and costs for services, or sales, if you know what to look for and how to compare the things you find. Not very Sherlock Holmes like, I'm afraid, and I'll never uncover a great conspiracy, but I like it.

What does this all mean, well, nuttin'

DCH
Last edited by DCHindley on Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mlinssen
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by mlinssen »

brewskiMarc wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:53 pm Three takes on the Calvary Hill Gang:

Clint: Sudden Impale (Magnum Opus?)
Mel: Lethal Weepin'
Chuck: Planet of the Apex

The mind boggles!
Chuck is a bridge too far LOL, he represents everything that is wrong with the US. So very wrong really

Anyway, welcome back then, 7.5 posts a day already, nice one. Had a minor run-in with SA, that's unavoidable if you have a heart, and after that you ignore him: well done then. He's only here to hear himself talk anyway

You remind me abit of Joe Wallack, but he's still around. Ish

What brings you here? I'm hooked on Thomas (just now released version 1.8 of my Interactive Translation) and have solved the Synoptic Problem on the side. And am on my way out for a while, but I keep saying that
brewskiMarc
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Re: “Did Mark Bottom Out?” Or “A Titanic Failure”

Post by brewskiMarc »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:27 pm Anyway, welcome back then, 7.5 posts a day already, nice one. Had a minor run-in with SA, that's unavoidable if you have a heart, and after that you ignore him: well done then. He's only here to hear himself talk anyway
Ah yes. My Darling Clement-whine. I got suckered in 1.5 times more than I should have. I have since put my shields up.
You remind me abit of Joe Wallack, but he's still around. Ish
Was always very fond of his posts, too. But his are far too big shoes to fill. Or, “I am not worthy to reprise him. But only play on words and my sole will be heeled.”
What brings you here? I'm hooked on Thomas (just now released version 1.8 of my Interactive Translation) and have solved the Synoptic Problem on the side. And am on my way out for a while, but I keep saying that
I stumbled in here the first time when I found some comments about Earl Doherty's work and wanted to follow up. My knee-jerk reaction at the time was "Jesus a myth?! How kooky! That'll be an easy theory to refute."

Which of course as it turned out, was not. I'd never read a word of christian text analysis before. Got hooked very quickly.

Was that your translation I was reading shortly upon my arrival? I saw "demotic" and read "demonic" but I suppose you hear that a lot. Had to look it up.

Would enjoy reading your solution to the Synoptic Problem.
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